Transcript
[0:02] the seatbelt sign the seat belt sign is
[0:06] on
[0:08] uh there's no room in the overhead
[0:10] actually there is no room in the
[0:12] overhead compartments we're totally full
[0:14] this is so exciting
[0:16] um
[0:17] Full House Full Hearts empty mind
[0:22] you said empty mine you looked at me do
[0:25] you know you do you know me well enough
[0:26] this is uh thank you um I'm gonna talk
[0:30] for maybe three to four minutes and then
[0:32] probably not talk for the rest of time
[0:33] because if you bought a ticket to come
[0:36] to South by Southwest
[0:38] to hear me talk instead of Paul or Julie
[0:43] um you do you need psychedelic assisted
[0:44] therapy
[0:46] um
[0:48] which could be a way to you know
[0:49] increase the market size
[0:51] um
[0:52] so uh thanks thanks for everyone for
[0:54] coming uh I actually got personally shut
[0:59] out of Paul's talk yesterday I was so
[1:00] excited and I saw all these people in
[1:02] line and I thought to myself well at
[1:06] least we'll have somebody come see us
[1:07] today and I'm really happy to see
[1:09] everybody how many people were at
[1:10] yesterday's talk I'm just curious oh
[1:12] okay good all right
[1:15] how many people are shut out okay
[1:18] so I'm gonna I'm gonna do some
[1:20] introductions because if I let them
[1:21] introduce I let Paul and Julie introduce
[1:23] themselves they probably won't be as um
[1:25] kind to themselves as as I might be as a
[1:28] fanboy so
[1:29] I'm Daniel Goldberg I'm a co-founder of
[1:31] Palo Santo we're a psychedelic we're a
[1:33] fund Venture Capital fund focused on
[1:35] psychedelic Therapeutics we did we did
[1:38] have kind of a busy day yesterday there
[1:40] was a small uh banking crisis going on
[1:42] apparently I I don't know who's in bad
[1:45] shape we have no idea we're calling
[1:46] around but it's very interesting because
[1:48] I think this is the moment right now one
[1:50] of many where if you are from and I'm
[1:52] going to poke fun of my friends in LA
[1:54] and Austin specifically that maybe say
[1:57] money is energy or energy is money
[2:00] that's not going to fly with Silicon
[2:02] Valley Bank and and I and I might be
[2:04] making light of it this is the this is a
[2:06] moment where you know you may want to
[2:08] like check in with your friends who are
[2:10] in business because it's it's a very
[2:11] scary thing so I'm just gonna just gonna
[2:13] put put that right there what that
[2:15] really means is I had no time to prepare
[2:17] I went to the pool and I wrote up some
[2:18] notes I'm going to say them and then I'm
[2:19] going to pass it over to Paul and Julie
[2:20] so I am a bit less organized than usual
[2:24] uh because of yesterday and it's a
[2:27] juxtaposition to uh my my co-founder um
[2:30] Tim schlid who had a panel a couple
[2:32] hours ago which was which was brilliant
[2:33] who's incredibly organized this may feel
[2:35] a little bit more like a psilocybin
[2:37] Journey uh in in its scope so uh his
[2:42] part his was called to trip or not to
[2:43] trip and it was with some of the ogs and
[2:46] psychedelic science I just want to call
[2:48] out a few things we heard from among
[2:50] others David Nichols who mentioned uh
[2:53] he's on pretty much unparalleled in the
[2:55] history of psychedelic science and Dave
[2:57] uh reminded us that we lost Decades of
[3:00] progress during Nixon's drug war and
[3:03] this field today uh I'm lucky enough to
[3:06] have been welcomed into a few years ago
[3:09] uh may seem a bit tribal at times
[3:11] there's a lot of I was here first uh I
[3:14] notice
[3:15] um and uh there are many Elders in the
[3:18] space that are that I'm not pointing you
[3:20] because you'll see where I'm going here
[3:21] there may be a bit scared of where we're
[3:24] going and what all this means but in my
[3:26] opinion the train has left the station
[3:28] and and we're very lucky uh to have so
[3:31] many Elders in the Psychedelic Movement
[3:33] by the way I'm sorry if I'm calling you
[3:34] in either of you an elder I'm 50. you're
[3:36] not sorry uh I I I don't like where any
[3:40] of this is going all right ready it's
[3:42] almost over uh welcoming welcoming
[3:45] welcoming new voices new Talent new
[3:47] ideas to advance their work to the next
[3:50] level and no one represents that kind of
[3:52] inclusive inclusivity is that a word in
[3:54] generosity more than Paul stamets and
[3:57] Julia Hyland you're in for a treat uh
[4:00] Julie is if you don't know her and now
[4:02] you do is a psychiatrist psychopharma
[4:05] psychopharmacologist psycho
[4:07] pharmacologists all one word not psycho
[4:08] and pharmacologist psychopharmacologist
[4:10] author and has been one of the more
[4:14] important advocates for the Psychedelic
[4:16] movement all around one of the coolest
[4:17] people you'll meet in this space I
[4:19] actually wrote that down because I was
[4:20] afraid I missed that and the vast
[4:21] majority of the time
[4:23] um she doesn't even let it get to her
[4:24] head and uh Paul
[4:27] it feels like an understatement to call
[4:29] Paul Stam it's the world's most famous
[4:31] Mycologist he is an author medical
[4:32] researcher and an entrepreneur in
[4:35] intellectual and industry leader in
[4:36] fungi habitat medicinal use and
[4:39] production
[4:40] uh today Paul is a bit of a rock star
[4:43] his message resonates with new audiences
[4:46] all the time he's brought what most
[4:49] people would think of as an esoteric
[4:50] topic to life and when I listen to him
[4:53] speak I personally get filled with a
[4:55] sense of hope optimism and and also I I
[4:58] love that there's always a call call to
[5:00] action which is which is very very
[5:02] meaningful
[5:03] um so okay why are we talking about
[5:05] psychedelics in the media uh undoubtedly
[5:08] the movies and books over the past five
[5:10] years brought in audiences we could have
[5:12] never imagined that's where I found my
[5:14] entry into the space
[5:16] and I'm going to turn it over but real
[5:18] quick bullet speed raise your hands if
[5:20] you've seen fantastic fungi okay and
[5:24] raise your hands if you've seen how to
[5:25] change your mind on Netflix and if
[5:28] you've read the book for really if
[5:29] you've read the book
[5:31] everyone lies about reading books uh
[5:33] Hamilton's pharmacopia the series dosed
[5:36] from shock to ah have a good trip
[5:41] psychedelic psychedelia The History of
[5:43] Science and mystical oh
[5:46] nine perfect I wanted that again Reefer
[5:48] Madness what books how to change how did
[5:51] okay doors of perception
[5:53] Ayala Waldman really good day I'm almost
[5:54] done Julie Holland good chemistry raise
[5:56] your hands everyone raise your hands
[5:58] um and the last one oh my silly I'm
[6:01] running
[6:02] you're in trouble all right so I want to
[6:05] pass this over to you guys that was that
[6:06] was the longest intro you'd ever expect
[6:08] but I wanted to set it up what did this
[6:11] all mean to you when it when when this
[6:12] [ __ ] how when did that shift when Paul
[6:14] I'm going to start with you Julie's like
[6:16] a co-moderator I have questions for
[6:17] Julie but she's gonna she's gonna come
[6:19] up with some content too but Paul I am
[6:21] very curious because you've been in this
[6:23] for decades
[6:24] um I think you wrote did you did you
[6:26] write your your first book in in 1976 is
[6:30] that right I started my first book when
[6:31] I was 19. and it was published in 1978
[6:34] uh 45 years ago philosophy mushrooms in
[6:37] their allies which is a I studied
[6:39] taxonomy created taxonomic keys
[6:44] as a family that contains the three
[6:47] generosity and hyphaluma or neematalama
[6:50] these are all you know Sister species
[6:53] that's why it was called strafaria
[6:54] cubensis then it became salosis that
[6:57] story foreos have a annulus a ring on
[7:00] the stem
[7:01] so yes I started very young most people
[7:05] know the story My Brother John inspired
[7:07] me and then my friend Ryan's father
[7:10] found my brother John's book Alder stays
[7:12] the Consciousness and burned it and that
[7:14] really inspired me when I was 14 to to
[7:16] take up the subject and I wanted to
[7:18] impress my brother John and he came back
[7:20] from Colombia and Mexico with amazing
[7:21] tripping stories and I was 14 years of
[7:24] age he went to Yale so he was part of
[7:27] this training there so to speak
[7:30] um but let me just put this in we're
[7:32] talking about the media and films and
[7:35] books what are these These are stories
[7:37] these are narratives and indigenous
[7:39] cultures through Millennia you know
[7:42] these stories you know have been told
[7:44] and retold generationally passing on
[7:47] knowledge we have New Media to tell
[7:49] these stories you know we have the
[7:51] internet we have books we have you know
[7:55] um you know films Etc but the songs and
[7:58] the Legends and the tales that we're
[8:00] told over Generations were the media of
[8:03] those times
[8:05] so I feel for myself and I think I can
[8:09] include Julie on this is that we are
[8:12] voices today who
[8:15] are one in a long and we're in a long
[8:18] lineage of Experts of psychedelic
[8:21] experts that are carrying this knowledge
[8:23] forward what's unique about psilocybin
[8:26] mushrooms to put it in perspective and I
[8:28] mentioned this yesterday
[8:30] you know we only know what's much under
[8:31] edible War poisons from the people
[8:33] who've eaten them before us so that's
[8:36] literally that's true with plants that's
[8:37] true with frogs some frogs are edible
[8:39] some some are deadly poisonous
[8:41] and so what's unique about mushrooms is
[8:44] how ephemeral they are they're only in
[8:46] your viewscape for a few days and they
[8:48] rot whereas animals and plants are in
[8:51] your viewscape in your event horizon
[8:53] constantly you see them frequently and
[8:55] so you have a familiarity factor with
[8:57] familiarity you have confidence in
[9:00] whether they're Friend or Foe and how to
[9:02] deal with them with mushrooms that come
[9:03] up some can feed you some can kill you
[9:05] some can heal you don't consent you on a
[9:07] spiritual journey and they disappear for
[9:09] a year what was that or for several
[9:12] years and so the cognizante in
[9:15] indigenous cultures that were you know
[9:18] experts mycologists and I really like to
[9:21] give a shout out to Maria Sabina and
[9:23] especially Valentina Watson also both
[9:25] these women you know
[9:27] Mary Sabino was a shaman everyone knows
[9:30] that and maybe people don't know if
[9:32] Valentina Watson was a Russian doctor
[9:34] but they indeed were mycologists they
[9:37] could go into the Wilds into the woods
[9:40] into the fields into fine mushrooms and
[9:43] be able to safely identify many of them
[9:45] now there's over fourteen thousand
[9:47] species identified in a genome of over
[9:50] 150 000 estimated in a kingdom of about
[9:53] two million fungi most of which have not
[9:56] been identified so it's not like they
[9:57] knew every mushroom but they knew enough
[9:59] to be able to you know collect them and
[10:02] give them in ceremony or medicinally and
[10:05] so these two women are really the the
[10:07] Pioneers that just catalyze this
[10:09] movement to bring it to us today so I I
[10:14] feel like I Shepherd this responsibility
[10:16] being a powerful voice in this time but
[10:18] in 1975 when I attended my 1974 1975 I
[10:24] attended my first mycological Congress
[10:27] there was a photograph I think someone
[10:29] showed I had really long hair and a
[10:31] really long beard
[10:32] I went through puberty really early
[10:34] really early
[10:37] um so when I went to these congresses
[10:39] and whatnot I was treated like a leper I
[10:42] I kid you not I walk into a crowd of
[10:45] people and it's like there was this a
[10:48] force field of repulsion and there would
[10:51] be like a circle of 20 feet away from me
[10:53] whenever I walk up to a group of people
[10:55] they would distance themselves you know
[10:57] fearful that I was interested in magic
[11:00] mushrooms and I confirmed their fears
[11:04] so um but fortunately Dr Daniel stunts
[11:07] the University of Washington because I
[11:08] was very interested in taxonomy and they
[11:11] were surprised constantly to be
[11:13] confronted of the souls I have mushrooms
[11:15] he had studied mushrooms for 40 50 years
[11:17] before I met him had never seen these
[11:19] psilocybin mushrooms and suddenly
[11:21] they're everywhere and it's because of
[11:22] wood shipping Landscaping in the 60s in
[11:26] particular using decorative bark around
[11:29] buildings and then when everyone went to
[11:33] Mexico and and there are some soul type
[11:35] mushrooms are rare but liberty caps were
[11:38] fairly well known but they were hard to
[11:40] identify as well for many mycologists
[11:42] even because they don't bruise bluish
[11:44] most high mushrooms are purple round
[11:47] spores and they're Bruce bluish Liberty
[11:48] cops do not they grow in pastures
[11:50] and so they when he Dr Daniel stunts
[11:54] realized that I had I had embedded
[11:56] myself into this subject and found going
[11:58] to libraries I couldn't find many of the
[12:00] references uh you go to the
[12:02] bibliographies all of you know this
[12:04] because you look at the bibliographies
[12:05] the references you find a reference oh
[12:07] I'm going to look up that reference and
[12:08] you can find them because all the the
[12:10] books and libraries the papers have been
[12:12] razored out with anything on psilocybin
[12:14] mushrooms so I went to Daniel stunts
[12:16] saying you know I need this reference
[12:17] this reference this reference and he's
[12:18] going wow this this guy's you know
[12:20] pretty learned about this subject and so
[12:22] he took me into his private library at
[12:24] the University of Washington botany
[12:26] department and so I spent many many
[12:28] hours I joined the Pacific Northwest key
[12:30] Council they elected me as vice
[12:32] president of the key Council which is a
[12:34] great honor for me my first
[12:36] being elected into a group
[12:39] um and I led you know there's about 40
[12:41] or 50 of us that were
[12:44] writing taxonomic keys to literally
[12:47] mushrooms I'm sorry I'm sorry Paul I
[12:49] think your time might be up I'm not sure
[12:53] that's all the time we have today I'm
[12:55] using my psychiatrist voice can you tell
[12:58] um okay I think I'll stop there I think
[13:00] do you have a clip do you have a clip to
[13:03] show is that why it got dark no no
[13:04] there's no clue I said you have a clip
[13:06] to show or did it just get dark in here
[13:08] for fun no I think somebody's leaning
[13:10] against the light switch if anyone's
[13:12] leaning against any light switches
[13:14] um
[13:15] thank you for unleaning should we just
[13:18] continue even though we're all yeah
[13:19] that'll be fun
[13:21] mics are working
[13:24] oh and the journey and you should yeah
[13:27] should be coming out of the trip right
[13:28] about now how is it uh that's about it
[13:31] okay I think I'll stop that's a good
[13:33] time I thought it was a signal for me to
[13:34] stop no no no we were she was joking I
[13:37] don't know
[13:38] so well I think that's you know that's
[13:40] that was my beginning and then I had
[13:43] some heroic Journeys and yeah I think a
[13:46] lot of us I always like to ask them this
[13:47] is going to be a fun question to ask
[13:49] this audience how many people in this
[13:51] audience have not tripped on psilocybin
[13:53] mushrooms
[13:55] uh seven eight nine maybe ten ten out of
[14:00] 250 you're a minority uh
[14:04] oh I'm so glad I mentioned that because
[14:06] I do want to mention one other thing
[14:09] in Innovation this is very much the one
[14:12] of the epiphanies that I've had and it's
[14:13] not a big one folks everyone sort of
[14:15] knows this
[14:16] it's so important to protect the
[14:18] minorities in minorities of opinion it's
[14:21] the minorities of opinion that drive
[14:23] Innovation not conventional wisdom it's
[14:26] the edge Runners the people who push the
[14:28] envelope the people who are different
[14:30] the people who are strange the people
[14:33] may be alien to your you know or your
[14:35] religion or or what you're you're used
[14:37] to you're in your they're outside of
[14:39] your comfort range but when you think
[14:41] about the giant leaps in science you
[14:44] know an exploration it is always the
[14:47] edge Runners the minority of people that
[14:50] push the envelope and so I'm a blend of
[14:52] being a liberal and a conservative I'm a
[14:55] conservative in many ways but
[14:57] conservatives want to conserve
[14:59] supposedly you know traditionally the
[15:03] safeguards that I've gotten them to
[15:05] where they are they feel safe you know
[15:07] it's insecure
[15:09] well
[15:10] the people who are on the margins who
[15:13] are pushing the envelopes are
[15:15] challenging to the safety nut that's
[15:18] been created by conventional
[15:21] wisdom religion Etc so this is really a
[15:24] shout out to everyone who are minorities
[15:27] minorities racially culturally sexually
[15:31] we need you you are the Vanguard of
[15:35] innovation that has propelled our
[15:38] societies into the future so all of you
[15:40] who feel marginalized I mean from my
[15:42] point of view you're the great Heroes of
[15:44] this movement you're the ones who are
[15:46] leading the way by your courage and the
[15:48] fact that you are different I'll stop
[15:50] there
[15:51] thank you
[15:56] all right Julie
[15:58] um how many more people have been
[16:00] brought into this movement since say
[16:04] 2017 or 18 right on a percentage basis
[16:06] and the messaging right from from the
[16:09] media from the movies from I'm talking
[16:11] about the the really what you know we're
[16:13] talking Joe Rogan fantastic fungi you
[16:15] know these these huge outlets right of
[16:18] Storytelling and I'm curious as your
[16:21] message has your messaging changed since
[16:24] say 2017 and how do you feel about it
[16:27] here's my short answer is no my
[16:29] messaging hasn't changed since 1985.
[16:32] um my messaging when we first learned
[16:35] about HIV in 85 I I wrote papers about
[16:39] uh giving condoms to everybody giving
[16:41] clean needles to everybody that seems
[16:43] like it's the very least we can do and
[16:45] at that time I was a Vanguard and and a
[16:48] lot of people were not comfortable with
[16:49] what I was saying and then I experienced
[16:52] MDMA for the first time in 1985 and I I
[16:56] went on television talking about it
[16:59] um like a local Morning Show am
[17:01] Philadelphia and that was not my first
[17:03] exposure to Media but uh the
[17:07] it's it's always been my goal to educate
[17:12] about the potential of the drug and the
[17:16] harm Associated and it's always going to
[17:18] be that balance and there is a little
[17:20] pendulum swinging but uh
[17:22] lately things have been swinging uh
[17:25] toward
[17:27] transgressions and us talking about
[17:29] those transgressions and boundary
[17:31] violations
[17:32] um you have people in a very vulnerable
[17:34] state when they are tripping and it's
[17:37] important that the people around them
[17:39] are trustworthy and dare I say even sort
[17:42] of have good energy or auras about them
[17:44] so I'm always happy to focus on harm
[17:47] reduction but I you know why are we
[17:50] talking about this because there's a lot
[17:51] of potential because there's a lot of
[17:53] benefit
[17:54] my first book back in 2001 was about
[17:57] MDMA it was called ecstasy the complete
[17:59] guide and that's a non-profit book to
[18:01] fund MDMA research then I did a book
[18:03] called The Pot book complete guide
[18:05] cannabis also non-profit funding
[18:07] clinical research
[18:09] um
[18:09] my most recent book is about
[18:12] psychedelics and I'm actually doing a
[18:14] book signing right after this right down
[18:16] the hall
[18:17] this is so if anybody uh this is a great
[18:21] book if I do say so myself
[18:22] um it's called Good Chemistry the
[18:24] science of connection from Soul to
[18:26] psychedelics and there's plenty of harm
[18:28] reduction in there but there's also uh
[18:30] plenty of sort of proselytizing about uh
[18:34] connection and the sort of fundamental
[18:36] benefits to your body and your mind that
[18:41] come from being connected feeling you're
[18:44] part of something bigger than you
[18:46] feeling like everything is connected and
[18:48] these are the kind of experiences you
[18:50] can have with psychedelics is a sense of
[18:51] connection you can don't forget cannabis
[18:54] is a psychedelic so even like a little
[18:56] tiny bit of cannabis and you might find
[18:58] that you feel more connected to your own
[19:00] body or to Nature and if you have a
[19:03] slightly larger dose you may feel
[19:04] connected to the universe and certainly
[19:06] if you have larger doses of psychedelics
[19:08] you're going to have that sense of
[19:10] everything being connected of of being
[19:13] part of something bigger than you and
[19:14] those kind of awesome experiences are
[19:19] not just good personally I would say
[19:20] that they're good for our society and
[19:22] our culture so I try to write about
[19:24] those things I try to talk about those
[19:26] things
[19:27] um I've been on the Today Show 26 or 27
[19:30] times not always talking about
[19:32] psychedelics but almost always educating
[19:34] people about drugs good and bad and
[19:38] occasionally educating about psychiatric
[19:40] conditions if a celebrity happened to
[19:42] have a manic episode or something I'd
[19:45] like to personally thank Charlie Sheen
[19:48] and Lindsay Lohan for selling my book
[19:50] weekends at Bellevue so so nicely for me
[19:54] for an extended period of time most
[19:56] recently I was actually given eight
[19:57] minutes on Killian Ryan which if any of
[20:00] you watch morning TV like that was a
[20:03] double segment and first of all I was
[20:05] pretty excited Kelly and Ryan is like
[20:06] it's a Disney Company it is about as
[20:09] mainstream as you're going to get on a
[20:10] Morning Show and what started out as
[20:13] well we just want to talk about
[20:14] alternative therapies for depression
[20:16] ended up at 8 min it's talking about
[20:18] macro dosing microdosing ketamine
[20:20] ibogaine Ayahuasca as much as I could
[20:22] get in in those eight minutes so one of
[20:25] the things it's important anybody here
[20:28] who's doing media is you the signal
[20:30] noise ratio really matters you know you
[20:33] have to kind of come up with sound bites
[20:35] that hopefully won't be taken out of
[20:37] context I did a podcast this morning I
[20:38] had the worst sound bite I'm like here
[20:40] here's your terrible sound bite I was
[20:42] talking about how um when Sanjay Gupta
[20:46] educated people about CBD and THC
[20:48] through the CNN documentary weed I was
[20:51] very involved in that documentary and I
[20:53] basically taught Sanjay's producer about
[20:55] CBD and then I spent an hour having an
[20:58] interview with Sanjay explaining about
[21:00] CBD and epilepsy and they ended up doing
[21:03] a documentary where they showed like
[21:05] two-year-old babies having seizures and
[21:08] it really convinced people uh that CBD
[21:11] could be helpful you know these kids got
[21:12] better Charlotte Fiji got better excuse
[21:15] me Charlotte figgy
[21:17] um and you know you you cannot make
[21:20] jokes about about seizing babies and yet
[21:23] today on a podcast I managed to because
[21:26] I was talking about how the issue of
[21:28] veterans needing help is very bipartisan
[21:31] and there aren't that many things these
[21:32] days that are bipartisan
[21:34] um
[21:36] firefighters NYPD any PD police I'm
[21:40] sorry I'm New York Centric I worked at
[21:41] Bellevue for nine years and I interfaced
[21:43] a lot with NYPD EMS and a group of
[21:46] people called ESU which are Emergency
[21:48] Services units kind of Who police call
[21:50] when they call 9-1-1 all those people
[21:52] are traumatized all those people need
[21:54] help veterans are traumatized they need
[21:56] help these things are bipartisan and and
[22:00] my terrible sound bite I'm just so glad
[22:02] to share it for you now put it out there
[22:04] again I was like you know the veterans
[22:07] are like the new season babies basically
[22:09] so it's terrible right it's terrible
[22:11] sound bite don't say that but the idea
[22:14] is that there are certain stories that
[22:17] are sticky that we care about we pay
[22:18] attention to we care about sick kids we
[22:21] care about First Responders who are
[22:23] traumatized we care about veterans who
[22:26] have literally put their lives on the
[22:27] line I'm not speaking metaphorically who
[22:30] come back and are in very bad shape and
[22:32] so these are bipartisan things so
[22:35] um
[22:37] the one more thing I just want to say so
[22:39] um so I do a lot of non-fiction books I
[22:42] talk on uh TV shows I'm a talking head
[22:44] on a million documentaries I'm working
[22:47] right now on something scripted which is
[22:49] a lot harder uh it's harder to sell
[22:51] something scripted I I imagine the
[22:54] person I'm working with is not in the
[22:56] audience but we sort of decided that we
[22:57] would announce it at South by Southwest
[22:59] um if anyone hears off station 11 I
[23:02] loved station 11 fell in love with it I
[23:04] got in touch with the executive producer
[23:06] who's very interested in psychedelics
[23:07] wants to do a scripted show about
[23:09] psychedelics his name is Scott steindorf
[23:11] we are working together to try to to try
[23:13] to create something scripted uh we're
[23:16] not the only team trying to make
[23:18] scripted material about psychedelics
[23:19] it's another opportunity to educate
[23:22] people you know to put to put the harm
[23:24] reduction messages in there to try not
[23:27] to
[23:27] B2 clickbaity uh I'm taking a break no
[23:31] that's good no and I think the story
[23:32] getting back to stories uh I I there was
[23:35] a time I'm I'm from Chicago Chicago area
[23:37] and it seems to be a it was a bit of a a
[23:40] desert in terms of psychedelic knowledge
[23:42] there's just I don't think most of the
[23:43] universities weren't there weren't
[23:45] involved in in you know there weren't
[23:47] too many big names or trials going on
[23:48] universities it's pretty pretty quiet
[23:50] and so I was uh it was it was a while
[23:52] coming out of the Psychedelic closet as
[23:55] they say I noticed when that moment
[23:57] happened that those stories uh that I
[23:59] was telling had a big impact like who am
[24:01] I right I'm telling like whispering to a
[24:03] few people here and there but I I saw
[24:05] how that filtered down I would recommend
[24:07] different books and different movies to
[24:09] different people so it was and this is
[24:11] you know it was like started with how to
[24:14] change your mind and then fantastic
[24:15] fundra came out and I remember uh
[24:17] bringing my wife to to see it
[24:20] um and she wasn't that into the topic of
[24:22] psychedelics at the time so I was like
[24:24] it's my it was mushroom I don't know
[24:25] it's a gene Cisco Film Center come on
[24:27] and it it had a huge impact and then
[24:29] your book for
[24:31] women
[24:33] certain women in my family and friends
[24:36] that I was just like oh this is a cool
[24:38] little book it kind of talks about
[24:39] psychedelics so I think each story in
[24:41] each film in each book in each media
[24:43] appearance can speak to different you
[24:45] know has spoken to different people and
[24:47] I I yeah I think this is an
[24:50] intergenerational movement when we were
[24:52] growing up you know our parents you know
[24:55] the
[24:56] we're not in the psychedelics and now
[24:58] you see multiple Generations that are
[25:00] sharing a lot of people I have a motto
[25:02] that many people know nature provides I
[25:04] don't that's my mantra for 30 years I'm
[25:07] happy to announce I just received a Drug
[25:09] Enforcement Administration license for
[25:10] Seoul Simon I passed my background check
[25:16] but people oftentimes ask me well where
[25:19] I can get souls I have and I go I can't
[25:20] possibly tell you but you have grandkids
[25:22] how old are they
[25:24] 16 to 25 they probably know where to
[25:27] find some
[25:28] um but a funny story about interracial
[25:31] and with children my partner I live on a
[25:33] remote island and desolation sound
[25:35] British Columbia that's where I spend 95
[25:37] percent of my time it's very strange
[25:40] it's beautiful place but then we get
[25:41] thrust into conferences otherwise we
[25:44] live in an extraordinary isolation
[25:46] um and we have a boat and I was over at
[25:49] a place that is a water access only tiny
[25:53] little village and I was gassing up my
[25:55] boat at the dock and I was um you know
[25:58] walking down the dock and there was like
[26:01] six seven-year-old girl she wasn't older
[26:03] than eight for sure but you know six to
[26:05] eight years old and she's like I'm
[26:08] walking down the lock and she's there
[26:09] with her family that come in on a little
[26:12] sailboat and she's just stopped in the
[26:14] middle of the dock and looked at me and
[26:16] she goes are you Paul stamets
[26:20] wow really I'm in bum [ __ ] nowhere you
[26:24] know and I go yes and yes and you go I
[26:27] get Amazon so she ran back to her
[26:29] parents saying oh but this is supposed
[26:30] to happen and then so it was really nice
[26:33] meeting her and she was really enthused
[26:34] and so I said they go we saw your movie
[26:38] a fantastic fungi and I I looked at her
[26:40] and I got she was really excited and I
[26:42] go what was your favorite part of the
[26:44] movie and she goes I like the part when
[26:46] the monkeys ate the mushrooms
[26:50] they'll twinkle with the parents eyes
[26:52] going okay this is the next Generation
[26:55] so
[26:56] but I do think it's multi-generational
[26:58] and I say this was some Chagrin and
[27:01] sadness before my father died he asked
[27:04] the trip on Soul side of mushrooms with
[27:06] me
[27:07] and Alexandra Smith who would like
[27:09] Daniel stunts with one of my great
[27:11] mentors he was the father of American
[27:12] mycology published many new species of
[27:15] souls I've mushrooms many monographs
[27:17] University of Michigan and he also asked
[27:20] me to trip with him on psilocybin
[27:23] mushrooms I mean these are two very
[27:25] important men and you know literally
[27:27] father figures in my life
[27:29] and with both of them I asked the same
[27:32] question and I said okay
[27:36] we could do this
[27:38] this is can profoundly change you
[27:41] you know Helen Alexander Smith's wife
[27:43] she was also renowned Mycologist I asked
[27:46] her and I asked my father's wife
[27:49] um will you also
[27:51] you know take these soul type mushrooms
[27:53] with us and both of them said no
[27:56] they wouldn't do it
[27:58] and I said well I respectfully decline I
[28:01] cannot give you Souls Ivan mushrooms go
[28:03] on our journey with you
[28:05] and at the end of your life they're in
[28:07] their 70s you'll have such a profound
[28:09] experience then I didn't want to drive a
[28:12] wedge in your relationship
[28:15] and this is where I think therapists and
[28:18] psychiatrists are so important to create
[28:21] safe guard rails because these are
[28:23] powerful medicines but what happens
[28:25] afterwards you do this big extraordinary
[28:28] journey and then I disappear right and
[28:31] they're left holding the pieces I didn't
[28:33] live with my father just on vacation I
[28:36] go away in two days Alexander Smith I'd
[28:39] go away the next day and then he would
[28:41] have to be trying to tell Helen or their
[28:43] Partners you know something that they
[28:45] couldn't fathom and this is I think a
[28:48] really serious you know
[28:50] question that we all face these are such
[28:53] powerful medicines what happens
[28:55] afterwards are you there for them are
[28:58] you skilled enough to to help them
[29:00] process and I think this is really
[29:03] really important is you know it's not
[29:06] the journey itself it's the path of the
[29:09] journey and subsequently that you'll be
[29:12] able need to come to terms and be able
[29:14] to talk this out so in the audience here
[29:17] we have a giant in the Canadian
[29:19] psychedelic movement as Dr Pam Crisco
[29:22] and she is part of the Canadian
[29:24] psychedelic Association and a group
[29:26] called roots to thrive they're doing
[29:28] group therapy end of life despair
[29:32] distress anxiety mostly stage four
[29:35] diagnosed patients with Canadian
[29:37] government approval with high doses of
[29:39] psilocybin now this I think is a model
[29:42] and is being replicated so I want to
[29:44] give her a lot of credit she's in the
[29:46] front row here and many
[29:51] but what they would that they have
[29:53] pioneered which is really good and with
[29:56] indigenous input Etc is that because
[29:59] this group of eight people and they have
[30:01] eight you know you know support people
[30:04] Physicians you know other people who are
[30:06] skilled in this indigenous people as
[30:08] well elders
[30:10] but because they have a common you know
[30:12] malady or or you know they have a death
[30:16] you know sentence
[30:19] the fact they all share this sort of
[30:21] like oh my gosh we're doomed to die very
[30:24] soon
[30:25] because they could come together and
[30:27] prepare over several weeks
[30:30] and then they share this journey
[30:31] together
[30:33] they became a community
[30:35] of people who could talk to each other
[30:37] when the other people weren't available
[30:39] to build Bridges and bonds and to be
[30:42] able to have a common destiny that you
[30:45] shared together in this journey rather
[30:47] than being alone which is what my father
[30:49] and Alexander Smith would have faced
[30:51] what a contrast and so I think this idea
[30:54] of people coming together not like going
[30:56] to Costa Rica or Jamaica and you're you
[30:58] know or you know Cusco Peru or something
[31:00] like this and you walk in and you pay
[31:02] your your your fee and you sit down with
[31:04] strangers I think that's a formula for
[31:06] disaster
[31:07] because one person have a bad trip will
[31:10] traumatize everybody in the group and
[31:13] they will go WTF we didn't sign up for
[31:15] this they're making my trip really
[31:17] challenging so I think having the shared
[31:19] common purpose I think that model has
[31:23] extraordinarily powerful potential so Dr
[31:27] Crisco thank you very much for your
[31:29] leadership you're really doing something
[31:30] quite amazing and they're publishing on
[31:32] this as well so thank you and she'll be
[31:34] on a channel here tomorrow at 2 30 with
[31:38] me and Natalie gagason and Xiao Jay who
[31:41] which is a women in the Psychedelic
[31:44] ecosphere who want to talk about uh
[31:47] psychedelics for women basically but men
[31:49] are allowed funny story also at 2 30 is
[31:53] the business of psychedelics 2.0
[31:55] at the same time so it's okay either you
[31:59] wanna like you know I don't know if you
[32:01] if you go to my team or Bluetooth you
[32:03] will be canceled you will be canceled if
[32:04] you go to mine uh you will be canceled
[32:09] uh you'll learn a lot too no if you're
[32:12] interested in capitalism whatever but
[32:13] we're going to be talking about actual
[32:15] clinical things so that's cute
[32:19] sorry Dan but I think it's time for
[32:21] women to take leadership so I just think
[32:23] this is a time for women no cancel I
[32:25] self cancel self cancel
[32:28] but I I wanted to make sure that at some
[32:30] point I canceled myself you know that's
[32:32] good I have to say Paul's been a
[32:34] tremendous Ally to The woman there was
[32:35] there was a mantle a few years ago just
[32:37] as covid was starting the guys didn't
[32:39] realize it was like eight or nine guys
[32:41] on a panel at a Consciousness
[32:44] um conference and I don't usually I'm
[32:47] not the kind of person to I'm just quiet
[32:50] and unassuming I don't usually make
[32:51] trouble but I emailed a few of them
[32:52] because there were friends of mine
[32:53] because it was like Paul stimitz and
[32:55] Andy Weil and I just emailed a few of
[32:56] them I'm like you guys did anybody
[32:58] notice that like this is a total mantle
[33:00] and the first person who responded Paul
[33:03] was like oh my God no this is terrible
[33:06] you know we have to change this I'm
[33:08] gonna bow out we need more women like
[33:10] you you were right there front and
[33:11] center and I really appreciate that and
[33:13] then well they added Melania Trump and
[33:14] that was it right that was the whole
[33:16] thing then covet came and it got online
[33:18] and you know the rest of the story I
[33:20] just want to make sure at some point I
[33:21] stepped into a big pile of [ __ ] uh for
[33:23] myself and I'm glad I did no I uh either
[33:26] panel is gonna be great go to go to hers
[33:28] you can watch mine another time can we
[33:31] can we just do this really quick Paul uh
[33:33] a little break because it has to do with
[33:35] movies
[33:36] we don't have to go off in a big thing
[33:37] on it but I'm just curious you are a
[33:39] lieutenant commander is that correct do
[33:41] you know what I'm talking about
[33:43] okay so chicken or egg question
[33:45] did Star Trek Discovery name a character
[33:50] after you because you had started
[33:51] exploring Astro mycology or was the idea
[33:54] from Astro mycology inspired by Star
[33:57] Trek I'm just curious actually I'm very
[34:00] happy to answer that and I have actually
[34:02] an add-on as well I was up in by the
[34:06] remote island cabin and CBS arranged a
[34:09] group call and 12 of the writers from
[34:11] Star Trek Discovery literally said Paul
[34:14] we're in the dungeon we're supposed to
[34:15] write the next Star Trek we don't have
[34:17] the foggiest thing what to do do you
[34:19] have any ideas and we're asking wow my
[34:22] cabin is built in the shape of Star Trek
[34:25] Enterprise
[34:26] the rafters are are gills of mushrooms
[34:30] right and it's it's it's three hexagons
[34:34] in tribute to bees and the big hexagon
[34:37] 36 feet out and the 224s are shaped like
[34:41] like a Starship so I'm going you've got
[34:44] to be kidding right and so um I said
[34:47] turn on your tape recorders let me let
[34:49] me and so I so I talked about mycelium
[34:52] the organization of Dark Matter computer
[34:55] internet neurons all conform to the to
[34:59] this web-like structure this interlacing
[35:01] networks and I told them about I believe
[35:05] that we'll find fungi throughout the
[35:06] Universe and and I said you know I gave
[35:10] him this whole wrap and I said rather
[35:11] than you know going going into
[35:13] hyperdrive and you see all the stars
[35:14] flash by you if you can tap into the
[35:16] micellar universe you can
[35:18] instantaneously jump anywhere in the
[35:20] universe so this is the advantage
[35:22] because the dark the organization of
[35:24] dark matter you know is is this network
[35:26] that permeates throughout the entire
[35:29] universe and so you know they're going
[35:30] oh my that's great and that towards the
[35:32] end I go you know I always wanted to I
[35:34] said you can have the ideas for free I
[35:35] don't want to acknowledgment I don't
[35:37] want anything I'm a Star Trek fan and
[35:39] what I love about Star Trek is you set
[35:40] the stage on a model for future
[35:42] generations of Tolerance diversity the
[35:45] the prime directive cooperation bringing
[35:49] people together this is a sacred Duty
[35:51] that science fiction becomes science
[35:53] fact you can lead people like myself
[35:54] with I was hugely impressionable about
[35:58] the tolerance of diversity Etc and then
[36:01] I blurted out I always wanted to be the
[36:02] first Astro Mycologist they go
[36:04] astromeycologist Astro Mycologist we
[36:07] could use this and then a little bit of
[36:09] the background then two weeks before it
[36:12] came out they go uh we better call Paul
[36:15] and they call Paul and they go because I
[36:17] signed a contract signed my life away
[36:18] you know they could do anything with my
[36:20] name no money no compensation
[36:23] um they said uh you know your character
[36:26] Anthony rap do you do you mind he's that
[36:29] he's gay
[36:31] you're asking me now right
[36:34] I said are you kidding that's a badge of
[36:37] honor I have all my gay friends I can
[36:39] tell them that I you know I've come out
[36:40] of the closet right so so you know so
[36:44] then then to finish the story there's uh
[36:46] the first three episodes showed and the
[36:49] Astro Mycologist Paul stamis is the
[36:51] total [ __ ]
[36:53] so my friends call me up on this is a so
[36:56] damaging to your career and your
[36:58] reputation so I call them going WTF
[37:02] what's going on they go hold on hold on
[37:04] so I told him about the mycilial sport
[37:06] Drive beneath increasing this chamber
[37:08] that you can fuse with the mycelium so
[37:10] the Astro Mycologist the stamets it goes
[37:12] into the mycilial sport drive and then
[37:15] bonds with blue glowing mycelium
[37:18] um and then after that encounter he
[37:20] comes out a really nice person
[37:26] so so I I I came out of the Psychedelic
[37:30] closet Paul came out of a different
[37:31] closet Giuliani closets you want to come
[37:33] out of um I was going to make the Star
[37:35] Trek sound when you said you came out of
[37:37] the closet but I didn't is there any are
[37:40] there any closets I want to come out is
[37:41] that your question for me moderator
[37:44] I feel like I already have I mean I've
[37:46] outed myself as a cannabis user as
[37:48] somebody who tried MDMA
[37:51] um
[37:52] I don't know the Psychedelic parenting I
[37:54] mean I feel like I've I've outed myself
[37:56] as much as I possibly can
[37:58] oh we'll work on that
[38:00] um
[38:01] uh okay uh this is this is somewhere
[38:03] between this is a question this is a
[38:04] good Julian Paul like dual question here
[38:06] because my my first experience uh was
[38:09] with uh age I'm 50. so this was at age
[38:13] 45. it was with MDMA I thought it was
[38:15] gonna be with mushroom I thought it was
[38:16] gonna be with psilocybin for a while
[38:17] because I'd you know done all my
[38:18] research and I'm an adult and I'm like
[38:20] well this is you know it's you can't
[38:21] it's untax it you can't you can take as
[38:23] much as you want I read Michael Collins
[38:24] book it was with MDMA and it was the
[38:26] luckiest thing that luckiest break I
[38:28] ever had and I say that because I had an
[38:31] incredibly uh profound experience with
[38:34] MDMA that led me to led me to to to be
[38:38] able to be I guess brave enough to go
[38:40] down the mushroom I have a very
[38:42] challenging relationship with mushrooms
[38:45] they say like really you know you have a
[38:46] relationship with the medicine it's a
[38:47] it's a troubled relationship like I'm
[38:48] still working on it
[38:50] um what advice do you you know there's
[38:52] this kind of everyone's jumping into
[38:54] into Soul Simon right away and and that
[38:57] I see and they're doing giant Doses and
[38:59] they are having challenging experience
[39:01] chances where do you go with that
[39:03] because there's a lot of Dogma you have
[39:04] to start here then you do this or you
[39:06] have to do that and I think it's
[39:07] different for everyone but I'm curious
[39:08] where you're at with that and where
[39:10] you're at with that you're a little
[39:11] biased uh and I want to know
[39:14] um this is what I do for a living I mean
[39:15] I I do consultations with people who you
[39:19] know have a lot of questions should I
[39:20] microdose should I macroduce what about
[39:22] ketamine what about Ayahuasca what makes
[39:23] sense for me should I do MDMA first some
[39:26] people mix
[39:27] um I have I have all kinds of opinions
[39:29] and I don't think I can get into all of
[39:31] it now I mean my personal bias is that I
[39:33] think it's nice to start with MDMA
[39:35] because it's a little more of a subtle
[39:38] shift and it's pretty controllable and
[39:41] you can kind of get a lay of the land
[39:43] and figure out where the landmines are
[39:45] where are the areas you need to work on
[39:46] and you know one of the metaphors I use
[39:48] with MDMA is uh it's like a light a
[39:51] house with all the lights on all the
[39:53] doors unlocked it's kind of up to you
[39:54] what closet you want to go into what bed
[39:56] you want to look under but you sort of
[39:59] feel
[40:00] competent and confident enough to do
[40:03] some exploring but you're going to hit
[40:05] some places where you're like oh that's
[40:06] too big and I don't know if I can do
[40:08] that which means you come back to it
[40:09] maybe another MDMA session or maybe you
[40:11] have psilocybin the second time but the
[40:13] big biggest issue now is that people are
[40:15] on psych meds and it's really hard to
[40:18] advise people it's hard to get off psych
[40:20] meds it's hard to get off
[40:21] antidepressants in case you haven't
[40:23] heard that I will tell you so and you
[40:27] can microdose even if you're on psych
[40:29] meds you can have ketamine if you're on
[40:31] psych meds but Ayahuasca is not going to
[40:33] really be possible if you're on most
[40:34] standard psychiatric medicines MDMA also
[40:38] often won't work depending on what meds
[40:39] you're on and then psilocybin is a
[40:41] little more complicated but this issue
[40:43] of drug interactions is something that
[40:45] really matters to me it is it is you
[40:47] know one of the risks because there are
[40:49] very few medical risks but if you're on
[40:50] these meds then you mix with these drugs
[40:52] that's going to be a risk so the biggest
[40:55] risk is also just our drug policy
[40:58] creates risk right we don't know what
[40:59] we're getting you know the drug
[41:01] substitution counterfeit I mean we
[41:03] really are having a crisis obviously Now
[41:05] with uh sort of the poisoning of the
[41:08] drug Supply so that's a big risk but our
[41:11] drug policy creates some of these risks
[41:13] and um and then some of the risks are
[41:15] just because you know as I love to say
[41:17] people are gonna people uh there
[41:20] unfortunately is abuse you know doctors
[41:22] abuse their patients dentist abuser
[41:24] patients Chiropractics abuser clients uh
[41:27] the the priests abuse their
[41:29] confessioners you know there's abuse in
[41:31] the military I mean it's everywhere and
[41:34] it turns out is also not only in the
[41:36] underground psychedelic scene but it's
[41:37] also in the clinical research
[41:39] psychedelic scene and in the retreat
[41:40] scene and nine perfect strangers uh
[41:43] really did a bad job educating about
[41:46] consent if nothing else let's just say
[41:48] uh that was a little problematic so you
[41:51] know I I want there to be Consultants on
[41:54] these shows if I you know if I can't
[41:55] personally be involved I would love to
[41:57] read a script and say hey this is
[42:00] dangerous this doesn't make sense let's
[42:02] make sure that we educate people about
[42:03] screening and preparation and
[42:06] integration afterwards and you know
[42:07] these are all things everybody needs to
[42:09] understand better keep in mind all the
[42:11] clinical research people are screened
[42:13] like crazy easy if you have any history
[42:15] of a manic episode or if you've ever
[42:16] been psychotic or if you have a first
[42:18] degree relative who's ever had a manic
[42:20] episode or been psychotic you can't be
[42:22] in that study so after the studies and
[42:25] after the FDA approval when it's more
[42:27] available and there's going to be less
[42:30] screening I'm afraid and unfortunately
[42:33] probably uh you know trying to run more
[42:35] people at once because the two clinician
[42:38] one participant model really isn't going
[42:42] to be cost effective so there are going
[42:44] to be a lot of bumps in the road and I
[42:46] think it's reasonable that we prepare
[42:49] for them
[42:50] if the pendulum swings so far that way
[42:52] right you know in terms of in terms of
[42:55] um
[42:56] warning and and and letting people know
[42:58] about the harms that's part of getting
[43:00] back to the movies and you know being on
[43:02] Joe Rogan all that is the messaging
[43:04] where do you go with that well um I I
[43:07] what I will want to say for the record
[43:09] you should obey the law
[43:11] the challenge that you face is uh do you
[43:14] obey state law or federal law
[43:16] and those states that are legalized like
[43:19] Colorado
[43:20] um and so in Oregon but
[43:25] you know I we have with our micro
[43:28] dose.me study and and doctors have are
[43:31] collecting hundreds and hundreds of case
[43:34] report reports where people have gotten
[43:37] off their anti-depressive medicines with
[43:38] microdosing and so attentive Physicians
[43:41] are always looking for these uh the N1
[43:44] studies one of these remarkable uh
[43:47] breakthroughs that are not conventional
[43:50] and they end up documenting it there's
[43:52] actually journals it was basically uh on
[43:55] best uh outcome cases where they were
[43:58] given a diagnosis for which there was no
[44:01] apparent remedy and then you know they
[44:04] stumbled upon something so when you
[44:06] start getting hundreds and hundreds of
[44:07] these case reports then clinicians wake
[44:09] up they begin to look at those saying
[44:11] wow there is something happening here we
[44:13] need to study it and so I think that's
[44:16] good you know with Grassroots movement
[44:18] is populating databases giving
[44:21] information that Physicians otherwise
[44:24] would not see if they'd only saw 100
[44:26] patients a month and you've got a
[44:28] hundred thousand people reporting now
[44:30] you're starting to see something and
[44:32] then clinicians pay attention for this
[44:34] for people who don't who weren't not
[44:36] there yesterday if you go to
[44:38] clinicaltrials.gov there's a 120
[44:41] clinical trials registered on psilocybin
[44:43] at clinicaltrials.gov
[44:45] that's extraordinary there was one back
[44:49] in 1999 right yeah so so that that means
[44:52] that the people are paying attention to
[44:54] this there is a lot of hype and high
[44:56] expectation
[44:58] but as more of these clinical trials are
[45:00] published it's you know amazing to me
[45:02] that many of these high expectations
[45:04] which seem to be extraordinary or even
[45:07] over exaggerated are now become
[45:10] substantiated alcohol use disorder
[45:13] opioid use disorder so kicking tobacco I
[45:17] mean this is these are three different
[45:19] types of drugs three different types of
[45:21] receptors and yet is fundamentally
[45:24] changing their neurological health of
[45:26] these addicts so that the course of data
[45:30] is is actually substantiating
[45:33] increasingly these extraordinary claims
[45:36] that heretofore were looked upon as
[45:38] being exaggerations and it's it's
[45:40] looking more and more real yep on the
[45:43] other hand
[45:45] people who have treatment resistant
[45:47] depression who've tried all these
[45:49] medicines and TMS and all these other
[45:52] things and they come to psychedelics and
[45:54] it's their sort of Last Hope and of
[45:56] course this is going to work everybody
[45:57] says this work uh and for whatever
[46:00] reason it doesn't work for them
[46:02] um those people are in a pretty bad
[46:04] State and they are few and far between
[46:06] but it does happen but there's you know
[46:08] I email you every once in a while about
[46:10] this like there's some people who just
[46:11] don't respond to mushrooms God knows
[46:14] if Paul doesn't know God knows why some
[46:17] people aren't responding to mushrooms
[46:18] and we do know I published a paper about
[46:22] people who'd been on ssris for a long
[46:25] time and when they came off of ssris to
[46:27] do an MDMA study the people who were
[46:30] never on ssris had a big robust response
[46:32] to MDMA the people who had been on ssris
[46:35] who had come off had less of a response
[46:37] I don't know if that's the case with
[46:39] mushrooms or not I've talked to some
[46:40] underground people who feel like the
[46:43] people who've been unss for decades
[46:44] don't have a robust response to
[46:46] mushrooms even if they come off I don't
[46:48] know if that's true but I do know that
[46:50] there I definitely know about people
[46:53] who came off their meds to have these
[46:55] experiences it wasn't what they I just
[46:58] talked to an underground person recently
[46:59] who got sort of some negative feedback
[47:01] from the person who complained I didn't
[47:03] get enlightened you know
[47:06] thought it was gonna get enlightened and
[47:08] you know it's not just a one and done
[47:10] there's this whole process and you may
[47:11] have to do a couple times and you need a
[47:12] lot of support between and you need a
[47:14] lot of support after as you said it's
[47:16] really this whole you know as much as
[47:18] people talk about integration they throw
[47:20] this word around it's the after that
[47:22] really matters well there's also a
[47:24] fundamental flaw unfortunately with
[47:25] clinical trials and it's extraordinary
[47:27] to me that more clinicians have not
[47:29] addressed this early on increasingly
[47:31] they are it's the placebo blind double
[47:34] control right and you the one group
[47:37] supposed to go to Placebo and the other
[47:39] group has a high dose of psilocybin
[47:41] there's a great cartoon many of you have
[47:43] seen and I just love it and the person
[47:45] or sitting in a patient group you know
[47:47] there are six of them sitting in their
[47:49] chair and the other six are dancing
[47:50] around you know and they go hey the
[47:53] person goes well I guess we're in the
[47:54] placebo group you know and this is a
[47:57] actually an ethical issue because you're
[47:59] treating somebody with treatment
[48:00] resistant depression this is the end of
[48:02] the line for them nothing has worked
[48:04] they're hoping they get psilocybin well
[48:07] what's the ethical responsibility the
[48:09] conditions that are exacerbating their
[48:12] depression they thought they were going
[48:13] to get psilocybin they get a placebo
[48:16] and then they use that as a baseline
[48:18] right for the comparison of the people
[48:21] who have an improvement I mean it's a
[48:24] it's really fundamentally flawed and
[48:26] there's 25 to 30 of these clinical
[48:29] trials that are using in inactive
[48:32] placebos in contrast to high doses I'm I
[48:35] mean this is just scientifically
[48:37] impunable and I don't know how they got
[48:40] past the IRB boards on this and that's
[48:42] the hubris of scientists especially
[48:44] scientists who have not tripped right
[48:47] who that looked at this as some other
[48:48] type of medicine that they think that
[48:50] they'll know it all is in designing
[48:52] clinical trials and then I think it's
[48:54] it's a serious I would take every
[48:56] clinical trial with treatment resistant
[48:58] or major depressive disorder that used a
[49:01] high dose of psilocybin with a placebo
[49:02] and you know look at them you know just
[49:05] very circumspectively as being you know
[49:08] inflating their data because of the
[49:11] contrast and what's the moral
[49:13] responsibility of causing these people
[49:15] to be more depressed because they were
[49:17] deselected it's true that in some
[49:18] psilocybin studies the only suicidality
[49:21] is really in the placebo group group I
[49:23] just said group in the placebo group
[49:25] it's incredibly disappointing right and
[49:27] when people ask me about whether they
[49:29] should try to find a study or try to go
[49:31] to somebody underground and we talk
[49:32] about all the risks and benefits of that
[49:34] I talk about the fact that most clinical
[49:36] studies is a 50 50 chance you're going
[49:37] to get the medicine so you have to be
[49:39] willing you know you're really doing it
[49:41] for science you can't do it for you and
[49:44] I've been arguing against Placebo in
[49:45] this forever and I'm I'm in the process
[49:47] of helping to design a study very early
[49:49] stages of using MDMA in the treatment of
[49:51] people with schizophrenia I I refuse to
[49:54] have a placebo in that
[49:56] that group first of all people with
[49:58] schizophrenia are sometimes pretty
[50:00] paranoid I don't want to play games
[50:01] who's got the button you know they just
[50:04] so I think what we're going to do is
[50:06] everybody's going to go through with
[50:08] Placebo first so they get the land and
[50:10] understand how it works and the second
[50:11] time they will get active drug and it
[50:13] will just know it and it's okay because
[50:15] you do know it I mean unless you're
[50:16] going to put dilating eye drops in every
[50:18] person which would be one way I've been
[50:21] talking about midriotic drops forever
[50:22] because to me it's a very easy cheap way
[50:24] to at least make everyone look like
[50:26] they're tripping who's in the study can
[50:28] you explain that I'm not quite familiar
[50:30] it's an eye drop that dilates your
[50:31] pupils so you get the big basketball
[50:33] pupils that one may get when they're
[50:35] taking uh well that's good the doctor's
[50:37] looking at people it would at least it
[50:39] will it would at least help the doctors
[50:41] think everybody was tripping but also
[50:42] when you get that much light in things
[50:44] look a little
[50:45] trippy so it's something
[50:47] have you ever gotten your pupils dilated
[50:49] for eye exam Paul you need to go to the
[50:51] eye doctor
[50:53] that's a little reminiscent of MDMA or
[50:56] psilocybin when you get that kind of
[50:58] increased light coming in yes but you
[51:00] know this is like even when people look
[51:02] at fractals and geometrical patterns you
[51:05] know it's just not like VR and VR is a
[51:08] wonderful toy again technology is
[51:10] getting ahead of itself but with VR that
[51:12] won't make you have the feeling of
[51:14] unanimity that Wells up inside of you
[51:17] when you're tripping and you feel this
[51:19] one with the universe it's not just
[51:21] fractals and geometrical patterns and
[51:23] and visual effects it's something that's
[51:26] deep inside of your core that Wells up
[51:29] and that is so different than what a VR
[51:31] experience can give and so these again
[51:33] clinicians are using VR who think it's
[51:36] oh yeah we can induce a psychoactive
[51:38] experience well you can get part of the
[51:39] way there but it's not the same thing
[51:41] yeah and also a lot of people don't have
[51:43] visuals or aren't very uh visually
[51:45] oriented there's something called a
[51:46] Fantasia that a lot more people have
[51:48] then we realize and it's some people
[51:50] they can close their eyes and image you
[51:52] know they can they can visualize their
[51:53] mother's face or you know what they ate
[51:55] yesterday or something other people when
[51:57] they close their eyes to visualize it's
[51:58] just black that's called a Fantasia and
[52:01] so a lot of people with a Fantasia don't
[52:03] have a lot of visuals anyway so if
[52:06] they're just focusing on the pretty
[52:08] colors they're really they're certainly
[52:09] I'm so neurotic I think you just gave me
[52:11] a Fantasia like I've been wondering why
[52:13] it's no but for me my first well yeah
[52:16] this is the visual this is a great short
[52:19] story uh Terence McKenna and um
[52:22] Christian ratch and and where Eduardo
[52:25] Luna uh and I were in Palenque and um we
[52:28] went to the ruins and um we had a bunch
[52:31] of cubensis and and for some freaking
[52:34] reason not a single one of us had a
[52:36] flashlight
[52:38] um we went to the ruins of Palenque and
[52:40] we all ate a whole bunch of Cuban sauce
[52:42] together I mean it's a great what a
[52:43] great group right and we're walking back
[52:45] to chongka the resort there in was about
[52:48] two miles away and we took the jungle
[52:50] Trail bad idea
[52:52] um and we ended up and the halfway
[52:54] through I mean it is Pitch Black we
[52:58] cannotize the type of trail walking
[53:00] where you're feeling with your feet
[53:01] whether you're on the Solid Ground where
[53:03] you're off the path and we're all
[53:04] staying close together going this is
[53:06] crazy and I go wait wait I have my Nikon
[53:09] camera I have a flash you know I can
[53:11] Flash ahead and we can see the trail
[53:14] and so I said wait so I turn on my flash
[53:17] you know
[53:18] you know the battery goes up and it says
[53:20] okay here we go ready one two three
[53:24] Flash
[53:27] oh that's going oh my God that was
[53:30] incredible so we so we stopped in the
[53:34] trail we all put our the eight of us
[53:36] around in front of my flash like oh here
[53:39] we go
[53:41] one two three
[53:44] and we're just like oh this is the
[53:46] greatest shamanic tool ever you know
[53:50] all right I I would want to put one harm
[53:53] reduction message in here this is for uh
[53:56] because I think we're actually videoing
[53:57] this session so hopefully uh you know
[53:58] we're gonna we're gonna have to do there
[54:00] may be some editing we'll see what
[54:01] happens no no no no I'm with yeah
[54:03] nothing I said no I got you it was
[54:05] illegal no no no no no it's perfect I'm
[54:07] going somewhere else here I'm going
[54:08] somewhere else here ready okay all right
[54:10] the the story that that you've told how
[54:13] you addressed your uh your stammer uh
[54:15] you know when you're younger it's a and
[54:16] it's a beautiful story and in fact
[54:18] before um the session there was someone
[54:20] that came up came up to us in in the
[54:22] green room and and shared his his um
[54:24] personal story of having a stammer and
[54:26] and was thanking you and it you took a
[54:28] you took some some time to talk to him
[54:30] and it was very very meaningful it
[54:32] reminded me of uh you know of of why I'm
[54:35] what gets me excited about being in this
[54:37] field and in this space but let me tell
[54:39] you something that tree going up in the
[54:40] tree I have four boys and I'm very
[54:42] honest with them about trivia I just
[54:44] want to clarify once and for all are you
[54:45] ready for this the tree when you went up
[54:47] in the tree with the lightning storm it
[54:49] was only like three feet off the ground
[54:51] right I mean the branch was like right
[54:52] here right I just want to make sure
[54:54] it was the video
[54:58] and Jonah you know what we're editing
[55:00] here yeah but yeah since you brought the
[55:02] tree and lightning
[55:04] I want to share an epiphany with all of
[55:07] you
[55:08] and my partner is very much a part of
[55:10] this experience because of this
[55:11] narrative
[55:13] okay this is um
[55:15] throughout the world lightning strikes
[55:18] are associated with mushrooms formations
[55:20] the Northern Plains First Nations the
[55:24] um the white circles are on the teepees
[55:27] are puff balls associated with lightning
[55:29] strikes in Ireland in Europe and
[55:32] mesoamerica all over the world Japan and
[55:35] Russia lightning stimulate you know is
[55:38] thought to stimulate mushrooms to form
[55:39] well there was a group in Japan that
[55:42] found 50 to 100 000 volts of electricity
[55:45] 110 millionth of a burst doubled the
[55:48] production of shiitake mushrooms so
[55:50] lightning was proven electricity pulses
[55:53] stimulate mushrooms okay we carry that
[55:55] forward and I'm thinking and I'm
[55:57] tripping and I'm thinking about the
[55:59] eight miles of mycelium you know
[56:01] underneath you know in a single cubic uh
[56:04] inch of soil every foot print you take
[56:07] you're on 300 miles of mycelium and I
[56:09] think after hundreds of millions of
[56:11] years of evolution nature is smart
[56:13] mycelium is smart organisms are smart if
[56:16] there's a lightning strike on the
[56:17] horizon the flash of light and you hear
[56:20] thunder
[56:21] well mycelium produces mushrooms in
[56:23] response to Forest stimuli a drop of
[56:25] rain of course associated with drop in
[56:27] temperature mycelium Wicks up exhaled
[56:29] carbon dioxide inhales oxygen and light
[56:31] so those are four primary stimuli so I
[56:35] thought to myself wait with all these
[56:37] fibers of mycelium all over the ground
[56:39] lightning striking a distance followed
[56:42] by sound low sound frequencies wouldn't
[56:46] it awaken the mycelium the myceliums
[56:48] like strings on a piano strings on the
[56:51] guitar they're vibrating from these
[56:54] waves that would alert the mycelium that
[56:56] rain is coming
[56:58] and if the rain is coming the mycelium
[57:00] wakens up to be able to absorb the
[57:02] moisture it's wicking it understands
[57:04] that on the horizon on the Event Horizon
[57:06] there's water coming well moreover
[57:10] think about this with drum circles
[57:13] with people celebrating the birth of a
[57:15] child the death of an elder the Harvest
[57:18] of food
[57:20] the mycelium is listening when people
[57:23] come together tribally and celebrate
[57:26] outside in nature with drumming and
[57:28] singing and toning
[57:30] I believe the mycelium Ascension it
[57:34] knows and is stimulated by these
[57:36] vibrations which means the mycelium will
[57:38] grow channeling more nutrients to the
[57:40] plants to creating more herbs more
[57:42] vegetables more fruits
[57:45] and that the mycelium is actually in the
[57:48] presence as a presence of being that's
[57:51] surrounding us all the time
[57:53] and I thought oh my God
[57:55] these lenses of mycelium everywhere are
[57:58] sound sensitive they're not only
[58:00] responding to the impact of your
[58:01] Footprints not only talking to lightning
[58:04] but are to our voices to toning
[58:07] and I think I think that's really
[58:09] amazing
[58:11] that is I thank you
[58:14] I'm what's that
[58:16] yeah yeah I'm get I'm getting thank you
[58:18] by the way I that's that was that's
[58:20] beautiful I have uh I have so I have I
[58:23] have a gift for the panelists why
[58:24] because it's it's fun to give gifts to
[58:26] the panelists I was searching for
[58:27] something mushroom related I had
[58:28] something really cool that I'm going to
[58:30] tell you about later but it's uh it's
[58:31] it's too expensive you may have to buy
[58:33] it on your own but it's really cool
[58:35] um seriously no but but but I I have
[58:39] this I have a gift for the panelists and
[58:41] it is a bronze I had to write this down
[58:43] Garuda opium weight this is not a
[58:45] Shameless plug for somebody's Gallery
[58:48] who I'm very related to but it's it's
[58:50] very cool it's from Southeast Asia it's
[58:51] roughly 150 years old and they were used
[58:54] to measure quantities of opium
[58:56] okay so it's kind of a harm reduction
[58:59] sort of thing right I don't know how
[59:00] much it weighs but um it's pretty cool I
[59:03] would still get your drug testing kits
[59:04] from dance safe if you are doing that
[59:06] and probably by a good scale but I
[59:08] thought this was pretty cool and one for
[59:10] each of you and when you uh when you
[59:12] when you use it just don't like whatever
[59:13] it is just make sure it's legal and that
[59:15] you've talked to your doctor
[59:17] but um I want to thank both of you
[59:19] really
[59:20] um for for your time and your stories
[59:23] and sharing your stories it's what
[59:25] inspired me to get in this space
[59:27] um changed my life I'm hoping that the
[59:29] work we're doing can can do the same for
[59:31] many others and it's uh it's you guys
[59:33] that made it happen um I just want to
[59:34] remind you if anybody wants uh I'm gonna
[59:36] be at the bookstore right starting now
[59:38] basically signing copies of good
[59:40] chemistry because I gotta run sorry I
[59:42] can't chat but I can chat over there and
[59:43] I'm doing a book signing tomorrow at one
[59:45] o'clock at the host defense Booth
[59:47] downstairs so thank you all thank you