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Featured

Psychedelics in Media & Science:Why the Field Changed

Paul Stamets
Paul Stamets
Apr 18, 2023
6 min read
Watch · 6
TLDR: At SXSW 2023, Paul Stamets, Julie Holland, and Daniel Goldberg discussed how films, books, and clinical research transformed psychedelics from a marginalized topic into mainstream discourse. Stamets traced his decades-long work documenting psilocybin species to modern media coverage; Holland examined psychiatric applications and safety concerns; and Goldberg framed the venture-capital moment as evidence that "the train has left the station." The panel emphasized indigenous knowledge systems, intergenerational mentorship, and the need for careful clinical integration while avoiding tribal gatekeeping in the emerging psychedelic field.

Read · 6 sections

How Did Psychedelics Enter Mainstream Conversation?

The shift began not in laboratories but in living rooms. Daniel Goldberg opened the panel by cataloging the media that brought psychedelics to wider audiences: Netflix's How to Change Your Mind, the Fantastic Fungi documentary, Hamilton Morris's Hamilton's Pharmacopeia, Dosed, A Good Trip, and books like Aldous Huxley's Doors of Perception and Ayelet Waldman's A Really Good Day. These narratives, Goldberg noted, invited audiences who "could have never imagined" entering the space through traditional scientific channels. The documentaries and popular accounts lowered barriers to curiosity, especially for people who might otherwise dismiss the topic as fringe or dangerous.

Paul Stamets reframed this media explosion as a continuation of ancient practice. Indigenous cultures, he explained, transmitted knowledge through stories, songs, and legends passed down generationally—their "media" of choice. Modern film, books, and the internet serve the same function today: they are vehicles for narrative. Stamets positioned himself and Holland as part of "a long lineage of experts of psychedelic experts carrying this knowledge forward," not as pioneers but as custodians in a much older tradition. This distinction matters because it contextualizes the recent resurgence not as a discovery but as a re-emergence.

What Is Paul Stamets's Scientific Foundation?

Stamets began documenting psilocybin species at age 19, publishing Psilocybe Mushrooms and Their Allies in 1978—45 years before the SXSW panel. The book emerged from his personal origin story: his brother John returned from Colombia and Mexico with "amazing tripping stories," inspiring 14-year-old Paul to study the subject seriously. When John's book, Ayahuasca: The Consciousness Expansion Technique, was burned by the father of a family friend, Stamets's resolve hardened further. Motivated by both brotherly admiration and intellectual curiosity, he took up taxonomy, creating detailed taxonomic keys for the psilocybin-containing genera—Stropharia cubensis (later Psilocybe cubensis), Psilocybe, and others.

This early work was meticulous mycology, not advocacy. Stamets learned to classify fungi based on observable features: the annulus (ring) on the stem that distinguishes Stropharia species, the specific morphology and spore prints that confirm identity. The book established him as a rigorous scientist willing to engage with a topic that official science largely ignored. His 45 years of continued work—spanning taxonomy, medicinal applications, habitat research, and cultivation—created a body of knowledge that later made him credible when documentaries and media sought expert validation.

Why Did Clinical Research Accelerate Recently?

Julie Holland, a psychiatrist and psychopharmacologist, anchored the panel's discussion of therapeutic mechanisms. The acceleration in clinical trials—now registered on platforms like ClinicalTrials.gov for psilocybin-assisted therapy in depression—reflects both regulatory permission and data. Holland emphasized that patients with treatment-resistant depression who have "tried all these [conventional] medications" and "don't have a robust response" now have an evidence-based option beyond placebo. The ethical weight of offering psilocybin-assisted therapy in clinical settings is significant: a placebo control group, she implied, means denying potential relief to half the participants.

This clinical acceleration also highlights the field's "tribal" dynamics, which Goldberg acknowledged. Senior researchers who lived through decades of suppression during the Drug War (a point David Nichols raised, noting "we lost decades of progress") sometimes view newcomers with skepticism. Goldberg, a venture-capital founder, gently pushed back: "The train has left the station," he said, welcoming "new voices, new talent, new ideas" while respecting the elders who preserved the field when it was scorned. The inclusion of women like Holland in leadership roles matters here—Goldberg noted the space historically excluded voices that could have advanced the work sooner.

What Are the Safety and Drug-Interaction Concerns?

Holland, using her "psychiatrist voice," raised a critical but less-publicized issue: drug interactions. Psychedelics interact with medications in complex ways that warrant careful physician oversight. The panel touched on microdosing—sub-perceptual doses that don't produce the sensation of tripping—as a distinct practice from full therapeutic doses, and both require different risk assessments. Holland's emphasis on this nuance signals that responsible integration means more than celebrating psychedelics' benefits; it requires understanding who can safely use them and under what conditions.

The focus on clinical trials and physician-guided sessions, rather than directing people to "somebody underground," reflects the field's attempt to move beyond counterculture informality. Stamets and Holland both emphasized education—Stamets noted, "It's always been my goal to educate"—as the path to safe, widespread access. This educational imperative extends beyond dosing to the phenomenology: understanding what people experience, how the mind processes the experience, and what integration looks like afterward.

How Do Indigenous Knowledge Systems Inform Modern Research?

Stamets's repeated return to indigenous knowledge—the songs, legends, and generational transmission—pushes back against a purely Western scientific narrative. While his taxonomy and Holland's pharmacology are rooted in the scientific method, they exist in dialogue with cultures that have used these mushrooms for centuries. The panel implicitly argued that modern psychedelic research isn't novel because the knowledge is novel; it's significant because Western institutions are finally validating what indigenous peoples knew.

This framing also challenges the "discovery" narrative favored in science publishing. Stamets stated that "we only know what's much" (the transcript cuts off, but the implication is that we've barely begun to understand fungal and psychedelic biology). With two million fungi species and most unidentified, the landscape of potential medicine is vast. Indigenous practices represent tested knowledge within that landscape; modern science is filling in mechanisms and replicating findings in controlled settings.

Where to Go From Here

The panel sketched a path forward: continue educating the public through media while respecting the rigor of clinical research. Stamets's call to action—present in all his work—was implicit: people should engage with fungi, with psychedelics, with consciousness itself, but through informed curiosity, not hype. Holland's presence stressed that psychiatric expertise, not just enthusiasm, must guide therapeutic use. And Goldberg's venture-capital framing acknowledged that commercial innovation could accelerate access while warning against losing sight of safety and equity.

The shift in how we talk about psychedelics reflects a shift in how we talk about knowledge itself. Stories matter; narrative matters. But they must be grounded in rigorous research, respect for indigenous wisdom, and commitment to clinical safety. The recent documentaries and books opened a door that decades of academic papers alone could not—they made psychedelics thinkable for millions. The next phase is making them available, affordable, and safe for those who need them most.

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Transcript

[0:02] the seatbelt sign the seat belt sign is

[0:06] on

[0:08] uh there's no room in the overhead

[0:10] actually there is no room in the

[0:12] overhead compartments we're totally full

[0:14] this is so exciting

[0:16] um

[0:17] Full House Full Hearts empty mind

[0:22] you said empty mine you looked at me do

[0:25] you know you do you know me well enough

[0:26] this is uh thank you um I'm gonna talk

[0:30] for maybe three to four minutes and then

[0:32] probably not talk for the rest of time

[0:33] because if you bought a ticket to come

[0:36] to South by Southwest

[0:38] to hear me talk instead of Paul or Julie

[0:43] um you do you need psychedelic assisted

[0:44] therapy

[0:46] um

[0:48] which could be a way to you know

[0:49] increase the market size

[0:51] um

[0:52] so uh thanks thanks for everyone for

[0:54] coming uh I actually got personally shut

[0:59] out of Paul's talk yesterday I was so

[1:00] excited and I saw all these people in

[1:02] line and I thought to myself well at

[1:06] least we'll have somebody come see us

[1:07] today and I'm really happy to see

[1:09] everybody how many people were at

[1:10] yesterday's talk I'm just curious oh

[1:12] okay good all right

[1:15] how many people are shut out okay

[1:18] so I'm gonna I'm gonna do some

[1:20] introductions because if I let them

[1:21] introduce I let Paul and Julie introduce

[1:23] themselves they probably won't be as um

[1:25] kind to themselves as as I might be as a

[1:28] fanboy so

[1:29] I'm Daniel Goldberg I'm a co-founder of

[1:31] Palo Santo we're a psychedelic we're a

[1:33] fund Venture Capital fund focused on

[1:35] psychedelic Therapeutics we did we did

[1:38] have kind of a busy day yesterday there

[1:40] was a small uh banking crisis going on

[1:42] apparently I I don't know who's in bad

[1:45] shape we have no idea we're calling

[1:46] around but it's very interesting because

[1:48] I think this is the moment right now one

[1:50] of many where if you are from and I'm

[1:52] going to poke fun of my friends in LA

[1:54] and Austin specifically that maybe say

[1:57] money is energy or energy is money

[2:00] that's not going to fly with Silicon

[2:02] Valley Bank and and I and I might be

[2:04] making light of it this is the this is a

[2:06] moment where you know you may want to

[2:08] like check in with your friends who are

[2:10] in business because it's it's a very

[2:11] scary thing so I'm just gonna just gonna

[2:13] put put that right there what that

[2:15] really means is I had no time to prepare

[2:17] I went to the pool and I wrote up some

[2:18] notes I'm going to say them and then I'm

[2:19] going to pass it over to Paul and Julie

[2:20] so I am a bit less organized than usual

[2:24] uh because of yesterday and it's a

[2:27] juxtaposition to uh my my co-founder um

[2:30] Tim schlid who had a panel a couple

[2:32] hours ago which was which was brilliant

[2:33] who's incredibly organized this may feel

[2:35] a little bit more like a psilocybin

[2:37] Journey uh in in its scope so uh his

[2:42] part his was called to trip or not to

[2:43] trip and it was with some of the ogs and

[2:46] psychedelic science I just want to call

[2:48] out a few things we heard from among

[2:50] others David Nichols who mentioned uh

[2:53] he's on pretty much unparalleled in the

[2:55] history of psychedelic science and Dave

[2:57] uh reminded us that we lost Decades of

[3:00] progress during Nixon's drug war and

[3:03] this field today uh I'm lucky enough to

[3:06] have been welcomed into a few years ago

[3:09] uh may seem a bit tribal at times

[3:11] there's a lot of I was here first uh I

[3:14] notice

[3:15] um and uh there are many Elders in the

[3:18] space that are that I'm not pointing you

[3:20] because you'll see where I'm going here

[3:21] there may be a bit scared of where we're

[3:24] going and what all this means but in my

[3:26] opinion the train has left the station

[3:28] and and we're very lucky uh to have so

[3:31] many Elders in the Psychedelic Movement

[3:33] by the way I'm sorry if I'm calling you

[3:34] in either of you an elder I'm 50. you're

[3:36] not sorry uh I I I don't like where any

[3:40] of this is going all right ready it's

[3:42] almost over uh welcoming welcoming

[3:45] welcoming new voices new Talent new

[3:47] ideas to advance their work to the next

[3:50] level and no one represents that kind of

[3:52] inclusive inclusivity is that a word in

[3:54] generosity more than Paul stamets and

[3:57] Julia Hyland you're in for a treat uh

[4:00] Julie is if you don't know her and now

[4:02] you do is a psychiatrist psychopharma

[4:05] psychopharmacologist psycho

[4:07] pharmacologists all one word not psycho

[4:08] and pharmacologist psychopharmacologist

[4:10] author and has been one of the more

[4:14] important advocates for the Psychedelic

[4:16] movement all around one of the coolest

[4:17] people you'll meet in this space I

[4:19] actually wrote that down because I was

[4:20] afraid I missed that and the vast

[4:21] majority of the time

[4:23] um she doesn't even let it get to her

[4:24] head and uh Paul

[4:27] it feels like an understatement to call

[4:29] Paul Stam it's the world's most famous

[4:31] Mycologist he is an author medical

[4:32] researcher and an entrepreneur in

[4:35] intellectual and industry leader in

[4:36] fungi habitat medicinal use and

[4:39] production

[4:40] uh today Paul is a bit of a rock star

[4:43] his message resonates with new audiences

[4:46] all the time he's brought what most

[4:49] people would think of as an esoteric

[4:50] topic to life and when I listen to him

[4:53] speak I personally get filled with a

[4:55] sense of hope optimism and and also I I

[4:58] love that there's always a call call to

[5:00] action which is which is very very

[5:02] meaningful

[5:03] um so okay why are we talking about

[5:05] psychedelics in the media uh undoubtedly

[5:08] the movies and books over the past five

[5:10] years brought in audiences we could have

[5:12] never imagined that's where I found my

[5:14] entry into the space

[5:16] and I'm going to turn it over but real

[5:18] quick bullet speed raise your hands if

[5:20] you've seen fantastic fungi okay and

[5:24] raise your hands if you've seen how to

[5:25] change your mind on Netflix and if

[5:28] you've read the book for really if

[5:29] you've read the book

[5:31] everyone lies about reading books uh

[5:33] Hamilton's pharmacopia the series dosed

[5:36] from shock to ah have a good trip

[5:41] psychedelic psychedelia The History of

[5:43] Science and mystical oh

[5:46] nine perfect I wanted that again Reefer

[5:48] Madness what books how to change how did

[5:51] okay doors of perception

[5:53] Ayala Waldman really good day I'm almost

[5:54] done Julie Holland good chemistry raise

[5:56] your hands everyone raise your hands

[5:58] um and the last one oh my silly I'm

[6:01] running

[6:02] you're in trouble all right so I want to

[6:05] pass this over to you guys that was that

[6:06] was the longest intro you'd ever expect

[6:08] but I wanted to set it up what did this

[6:11] all mean to you when it when when this

[6:12] [ __ ] how when did that shift when Paul

[6:14] I'm going to start with you Julie's like

[6:16] a co-moderator I have questions for

[6:17] Julie but she's gonna she's gonna come

[6:19] up with some content too but Paul I am

[6:21] very curious because you've been in this

[6:23] for decades

[6:24] um I think you wrote did you did you

[6:26] write your your first book in in 1976 is

[6:30] that right I started my first book when

[6:31] I was 19. and it was published in 1978

[6:34] uh 45 years ago philosophy mushrooms in

[6:37] their allies which is a I studied

[6:39] taxonomy created taxonomic keys

[6:44] as a family that contains the three

[6:47] generosity and hyphaluma or neematalama

[6:50] these are all you know Sister species

[6:53] that's why it was called strafaria

[6:54] cubensis then it became salosis that

[6:57] story foreos have a annulus a ring on

[7:00] the stem

[7:01] so yes I started very young most people

[7:05] know the story My Brother John inspired

[7:07] me and then my friend Ryan's father

[7:10] found my brother John's book Alder stays

[7:12] the Consciousness and burned it and that

[7:14] really inspired me when I was 14 to to

[7:16] take up the subject and I wanted to

[7:18] impress my brother John and he came back

[7:20] from Colombia and Mexico with amazing

[7:21] tripping stories and I was 14 years of

[7:24] age he went to Yale so he was part of

[7:27] this training there so to speak

[7:30] um but let me just put this in we're

[7:32] talking about the media and films and

[7:35] books what are these These are stories

[7:37] these are narratives and indigenous

[7:39] cultures through Millennia you know

[7:42] these stories you know have been told

[7:44] and retold generationally passing on

[7:47] knowledge we have New Media to tell

[7:49] these stories you know we have the

[7:51] internet we have books we have you know

[7:55] um you know films Etc but the songs and

[7:58] the Legends and the tales that we're

[8:00] told over Generations were the media of

[8:03] those times

[8:05] so I feel for myself and I think I can

[8:09] include Julie on this is that we are

[8:12] voices today who

[8:15] are one in a long and we're in a long

[8:18] lineage of Experts of psychedelic

[8:21] experts that are carrying this knowledge

[8:23] forward what's unique about psilocybin

[8:26] mushrooms to put it in perspective and I

[8:28] mentioned this yesterday

[8:30] you know we only know what's much under

[8:31] edible War poisons from the people

[8:33] who've eaten them before us so that's

[8:36] literally that's true with plants that's

[8:37] true with frogs some frogs are edible

[8:39] some some are deadly poisonous

[8:41] and so what's unique about mushrooms is

[8:44] how ephemeral they are they're only in

[8:46] your viewscape for a few days and they

[8:48] rot whereas animals and plants are in

[8:51] your viewscape in your event horizon

[8:53] constantly you see them frequently and

[8:55] so you have a familiarity factor with

[8:57] familiarity you have confidence in

[9:00] whether they're Friend or Foe and how to

[9:02] deal with them with mushrooms that come

[9:03] up some can feed you some can kill you

[9:05] some can heal you don't consent you on a

[9:07] spiritual journey and they disappear for

[9:09] a year what was that or for several

[9:12] years and so the cognizante in

[9:15] indigenous cultures that were you know

[9:18] experts mycologists and I really like to

[9:21] give a shout out to Maria Sabina and

[9:23] especially Valentina Watson also both

[9:25] these women you know

[9:27] Mary Sabino was a shaman everyone knows

[9:30] that and maybe people don't know if

[9:32] Valentina Watson was a Russian doctor

[9:34] but they indeed were mycologists they

[9:37] could go into the Wilds into the woods

[9:40] into the fields into fine mushrooms and

[9:43] be able to safely identify many of them

[9:45] now there's over fourteen thousand

[9:47] species identified in a genome of over

[9:50] 150 000 estimated in a kingdom of about

[9:53] two million fungi most of which have not

[9:56] been identified so it's not like they

[9:57] knew every mushroom but they knew enough

[9:59] to be able to you know collect them and

[10:02] give them in ceremony or medicinally and

[10:05] so these two women are really the the

[10:07] Pioneers that just catalyze this

[10:09] movement to bring it to us today so I I

[10:14] feel like I Shepherd this responsibility

[10:16] being a powerful voice in this time but

[10:18] in 1975 when I attended my 1974 1975 I

[10:24] attended my first mycological Congress

[10:27] there was a photograph I think someone

[10:29] showed I had really long hair and a

[10:31] really long beard

[10:32] I went through puberty really early

[10:34] really early

[10:37] um so when I went to these congresses

[10:39] and whatnot I was treated like a leper I

[10:42] I kid you not I walk into a crowd of

[10:45] people and it's like there was this a

[10:48] force field of repulsion and there would

[10:51] be like a circle of 20 feet away from me

[10:53] whenever I walk up to a group of people

[10:55] they would distance themselves you know

[10:57] fearful that I was interested in magic

[11:00] mushrooms and I confirmed their fears

[11:04] so um but fortunately Dr Daniel stunts

[11:07] the University of Washington because I

[11:08] was very interested in taxonomy and they

[11:11] were surprised constantly to be

[11:13] confronted of the souls I have mushrooms

[11:15] he had studied mushrooms for 40 50 years

[11:17] before I met him had never seen these

[11:19] psilocybin mushrooms and suddenly

[11:21] they're everywhere and it's because of

[11:22] wood shipping Landscaping in the 60s in

[11:26] particular using decorative bark around

[11:29] buildings and then when everyone went to

[11:33] Mexico and and there are some soul type

[11:35] mushrooms are rare but liberty caps were

[11:38] fairly well known but they were hard to

[11:40] identify as well for many mycologists

[11:42] even because they don't bruise bluish

[11:44] most high mushrooms are purple round

[11:47] spores and they're Bruce bluish Liberty

[11:48] cops do not they grow in pastures

[11:50] and so they when he Dr Daniel stunts

[11:54] realized that I had I had embedded

[11:56] myself into this subject and found going

[11:58] to libraries I couldn't find many of the

[12:00] references uh you go to the

[12:02] bibliographies all of you know this

[12:04] because you look at the bibliographies

[12:05] the references you find a reference oh

[12:07] I'm going to look up that reference and

[12:08] you can find them because all the the

[12:10] books and libraries the papers have been

[12:12] razored out with anything on psilocybin

[12:14] mushrooms so I went to Daniel stunts

[12:16] saying you know I need this reference

[12:17] this reference this reference and he's

[12:18] going wow this this guy's you know

[12:20] pretty learned about this subject and so

[12:22] he took me into his private library at

[12:24] the University of Washington botany

[12:26] department and so I spent many many

[12:28] hours I joined the Pacific Northwest key

[12:30] Council they elected me as vice

[12:32] president of the key Council which is a

[12:34] great honor for me my first

[12:36] being elected into a group

[12:39] um and I led you know there's about 40

[12:41] or 50 of us that were

[12:44] writing taxonomic keys to literally

[12:47] mushrooms I'm sorry I'm sorry Paul I

[12:49] think your time might be up I'm not sure

[12:53] that's all the time we have today I'm

[12:55] using my psychiatrist voice can you tell

[12:58] um okay I think I'll stop there I think

[13:00] do you have a clip do you have a clip to

[13:03] show is that why it got dark no no

[13:04] there's no clue I said you have a clip

[13:06] to show or did it just get dark in here

[13:08] for fun no I think somebody's leaning

[13:10] against the light switch if anyone's

[13:12] leaning against any light switches

[13:14] um

[13:15] thank you for unleaning should we just

[13:18] continue even though we're all yeah

[13:19] that'll be fun

[13:21] mics are working

[13:24] oh and the journey and you should yeah

[13:27] should be coming out of the trip right

[13:28] about now how is it uh that's about it

[13:31] okay I think I'll stop that's a good

[13:33] time I thought it was a signal for me to

[13:34] stop no no no we were she was joking I

[13:37] don't know

[13:38] so well I think that's you know that's

[13:40] that was my beginning and then I had

[13:43] some heroic Journeys and yeah I think a

[13:46] lot of us I always like to ask them this

[13:47] is going to be a fun question to ask

[13:49] this audience how many people in this

[13:51] audience have not tripped on psilocybin

[13:53] mushrooms

[13:55] uh seven eight nine maybe ten ten out of

[14:00] 250 you're a minority uh

[14:04] oh I'm so glad I mentioned that because

[14:06] I do want to mention one other thing

[14:09] in Innovation this is very much the one

[14:12] of the epiphanies that I've had and it's

[14:13] not a big one folks everyone sort of

[14:15] knows this

[14:16] it's so important to protect the

[14:18] minorities in minorities of opinion it's

[14:21] the minorities of opinion that drive

[14:23] Innovation not conventional wisdom it's

[14:26] the edge Runners the people who push the

[14:28] envelope the people who are different

[14:30] the people who are strange the people

[14:33] may be alien to your you know or your

[14:35] religion or or what you're you're used

[14:37] to you're in your they're outside of

[14:39] your comfort range but when you think

[14:41] about the giant leaps in science you

[14:44] know an exploration it is always the

[14:47] edge Runners the minority of people that

[14:50] push the envelope and so I'm a blend of

[14:52] being a liberal and a conservative I'm a

[14:55] conservative in many ways but

[14:57] conservatives want to conserve

[14:59] supposedly you know traditionally the

[15:03] safeguards that I've gotten them to

[15:05] where they are they feel safe you know

[15:07] it's insecure

[15:09] well

[15:10] the people who are on the margins who

[15:13] are pushing the envelopes are

[15:15] challenging to the safety nut that's

[15:18] been created by conventional

[15:21] wisdom religion Etc so this is really a

[15:24] shout out to everyone who are minorities

[15:27] minorities racially culturally sexually

[15:31] we need you you are the Vanguard of

[15:35] innovation that has propelled our

[15:38] societies into the future so all of you

[15:40] who feel marginalized I mean from my

[15:42] point of view you're the great Heroes of

[15:44] this movement you're the ones who are

[15:46] leading the way by your courage and the

[15:48] fact that you are different I'll stop

[15:50] there

[15:51] thank you

[15:56] all right Julie

[15:58] um how many more people have been

[16:00] brought into this movement since say

[16:04] 2017 or 18 right on a percentage basis

[16:06] and the messaging right from from the

[16:09] media from the movies from I'm talking

[16:11] about the the really what you know we're

[16:13] talking Joe Rogan fantastic fungi you

[16:15] know these these huge outlets right of

[16:18] Storytelling and I'm curious as your

[16:21] message has your messaging changed since

[16:24] say 2017 and how do you feel about it

[16:27] here's my short answer is no my

[16:29] messaging hasn't changed since 1985.

[16:32] um my messaging when we first learned

[16:35] about HIV in 85 I I wrote papers about

[16:39] uh giving condoms to everybody giving

[16:41] clean needles to everybody that seems

[16:43] like it's the very least we can do and

[16:45] at that time I was a Vanguard and and a

[16:48] lot of people were not comfortable with

[16:49] what I was saying and then I experienced

[16:52] MDMA for the first time in 1985 and I I

[16:56] went on television talking about it

[16:59] um like a local Morning Show am

[17:01] Philadelphia and that was not my first

[17:03] exposure to Media but uh the

[17:07] it's it's always been my goal to educate

[17:12] about the potential of the drug and the

[17:16] harm Associated and it's always going to

[17:18] be that balance and there is a little

[17:20] pendulum swinging but uh

[17:22] lately things have been swinging uh

[17:25] toward

[17:27] transgressions and us talking about

[17:29] those transgressions and boundary

[17:31] violations

[17:32] um you have people in a very vulnerable

[17:34] state when they are tripping and it's

[17:37] important that the people around them

[17:39] are trustworthy and dare I say even sort

[17:42] of have good energy or auras about them

[17:44] so I'm always happy to focus on harm

[17:47] reduction but I you know why are we

[17:50] talking about this because there's a lot

[17:51] of potential because there's a lot of

[17:53] benefit

[17:54] my first book back in 2001 was about

[17:57] MDMA it was called ecstasy the complete

[17:59] guide and that's a non-profit book to

[18:01] fund MDMA research then I did a book

[18:03] called The Pot book complete guide

[18:05] cannabis also non-profit funding

[18:07] clinical research

[18:09] um

[18:09] my most recent book is about

[18:12] psychedelics and I'm actually doing a

[18:14] book signing right after this right down

[18:16] the hall

[18:17] this is so if anybody uh this is a great

[18:21] book if I do say so myself

[18:22] um it's called Good Chemistry the

[18:24] science of connection from Soul to

[18:26] psychedelics and there's plenty of harm

[18:28] reduction in there but there's also uh

[18:30] plenty of sort of proselytizing about uh

[18:34] connection and the sort of fundamental

[18:36] benefits to your body and your mind that

[18:41] come from being connected feeling you're

[18:44] part of something bigger than you

[18:46] feeling like everything is connected and

[18:48] these are the kind of experiences you

[18:50] can have with psychedelics is a sense of

[18:51] connection you can don't forget cannabis

[18:54] is a psychedelic so even like a little

[18:56] tiny bit of cannabis and you might find

[18:58] that you feel more connected to your own

[19:00] body or to Nature and if you have a

[19:03] slightly larger dose you may feel

[19:04] connected to the universe and certainly

[19:06] if you have larger doses of psychedelics

[19:08] you're going to have that sense of

[19:10] everything being connected of of being

[19:13] part of something bigger than you and

[19:14] those kind of awesome experiences are

[19:19] not just good personally I would say

[19:20] that they're good for our society and

[19:22] our culture so I try to write about

[19:24] those things I try to talk about those

[19:26] things

[19:27] um I've been on the Today Show 26 or 27

[19:30] times not always talking about

[19:32] psychedelics but almost always educating

[19:34] people about drugs good and bad and

[19:38] occasionally educating about psychiatric

[19:40] conditions if a celebrity happened to

[19:42] have a manic episode or something I'd

[19:45] like to personally thank Charlie Sheen

[19:48] and Lindsay Lohan for selling my book

[19:50] weekends at Bellevue so so nicely for me

[19:54] for an extended period of time most

[19:56] recently I was actually given eight

[19:57] minutes on Killian Ryan which if any of

[20:00] you watch morning TV like that was a

[20:03] double segment and first of all I was

[20:05] pretty excited Kelly and Ryan is like

[20:06] it's a Disney Company it is about as

[20:09] mainstream as you're going to get on a

[20:10] Morning Show and what started out as

[20:13] well we just want to talk about

[20:14] alternative therapies for depression

[20:16] ended up at 8 min it's talking about

[20:18] macro dosing microdosing ketamine

[20:20] ibogaine Ayahuasca as much as I could

[20:22] get in in those eight minutes so one of

[20:25] the things it's important anybody here

[20:28] who's doing media is you the signal

[20:30] noise ratio really matters you know you

[20:33] have to kind of come up with sound bites

[20:35] that hopefully won't be taken out of

[20:37] context I did a podcast this morning I

[20:38] had the worst sound bite I'm like here

[20:40] here's your terrible sound bite I was

[20:42] talking about how um when Sanjay Gupta

[20:46] educated people about CBD and THC

[20:48] through the CNN documentary weed I was

[20:51] very involved in that documentary and I

[20:53] basically taught Sanjay's producer about

[20:55] CBD and then I spent an hour having an

[20:58] interview with Sanjay explaining about

[21:00] CBD and epilepsy and they ended up doing

[21:03] a documentary where they showed like

[21:05] two-year-old babies having seizures and

[21:08] it really convinced people uh that CBD

[21:11] could be helpful you know these kids got

[21:12] better Charlotte Fiji got better excuse

[21:15] me Charlotte figgy

[21:17] um and you know you you cannot make

[21:20] jokes about about seizing babies and yet

[21:23] today on a podcast I managed to because

[21:26] I was talking about how the issue of

[21:28] veterans needing help is very bipartisan

[21:31] and there aren't that many things these

[21:32] days that are bipartisan

[21:34] um

[21:36] firefighters NYPD any PD police I'm

[21:40] sorry I'm New York Centric I worked at

[21:41] Bellevue for nine years and I interfaced

[21:43] a lot with NYPD EMS and a group of

[21:46] people called ESU which are Emergency

[21:48] Services units kind of Who police call

[21:50] when they call 9-1-1 all those people

[21:52] are traumatized all those people need

[21:54] help veterans are traumatized they need

[21:56] help these things are bipartisan and and

[22:00] my terrible sound bite I'm just so glad

[22:02] to share it for you now put it out there

[22:04] again I was like you know the veterans

[22:07] are like the new season babies basically

[22:09] so it's terrible right it's terrible

[22:11] sound bite don't say that but the idea

[22:14] is that there are certain stories that

[22:17] are sticky that we care about we pay

[22:18] attention to we care about sick kids we

[22:21] care about First Responders who are

[22:23] traumatized we care about veterans who

[22:26] have literally put their lives on the

[22:27] line I'm not speaking metaphorically who

[22:30] come back and are in very bad shape and

[22:32] so these are bipartisan things so

[22:35] um

[22:37] the one more thing I just want to say so

[22:39] um so I do a lot of non-fiction books I

[22:42] talk on uh TV shows I'm a talking head

[22:44] on a million documentaries I'm working

[22:47] right now on something scripted which is

[22:49] a lot harder uh it's harder to sell

[22:51] something scripted I I imagine the

[22:54] person I'm working with is not in the

[22:56] audience but we sort of decided that we

[22:57] would announce it at South by Southwest

[22:59] um if anyone hears off station 11 I

[23:02] loved station 11 fell in love with it I

[23:04] got in touch with the executive producer

[23:06] who's very interested in psychedelics

[23:07] wants to do a scripted show about

[23:09] psychedelics his name is Scott steindorf

[23:11] we are working together to try to to try

[23:13] to create something scripted uh we're

[23:16] not the only team trying to make

[23:18] scripted material about psychedelics

[23:19] it's another opportunity to educate

[23:22] people you know to put to put the harm

[23:24] reduction messages in there to try not

[23:27] to

[23:27] B2 clickbaity uh I'm taking a break no

[23:31] that's good no and I think the story

[23:32] getting back to stories uh I I there was

[23:35] a time I'm I'm from Chicago Chicago area

[23:37] and it seems to be a it was a bit of a a

[23:40] desert in terms of psychedelic knowledge

[23:42] there's just I don't think most of the

[23:43] universities weren't there weren't

[23:45] involved in in you know there weren't

[23:47] too many big names or trials going on

[23:48] universities it's pretty pretty quiet

[23:50] and so I was uh it was it was a while

[23:52] coming out of the Psychedelic closet as

[23:55] they say I noticed when that moment

[23:57] happened that those stories uh that I

[23:59] was telling had a big impact like who am

[24:01] I right I'm telling like whispering to a

[24:03] few people here and there but I I saw

[24:05] how that filtered down I would recommend

[24:07] different books and different movies to

[24:09] different people so it was and this is

[24:11] you know it was like started with how to

[24:14] change your mind and then fantastic

[24:15] fundra came out and I remember uh

[24:17] bringing my wife to to see it

[24:20] um and she wasn't that into the topic of

[24:22] psychedelics at the time so I was like

[24:24] it's my it was mushroom I don't know

[24:25] it's a gene Cisco Film Center come on

[24:27] and it it had a huge impact and then

[24:29] your book for

[24:31] women

[24:33] certain women in my family and friends

[24:36] that I was just like oh this is a cool

[24:38] little book it kind of talks about

[24:39] psychedelics so I think each story in

[24:41] each film in each book in each media

[24:43] appearance can speak to different you

[24:45] know has spoken to different people and

[24:47] I I yeah I think this is an

[24:50] intergenerational movement when we were

[24:52] growing up you know our parents you know

[24:55] the

[24:56] we're not in the psychedelics and now

[24:58] you see multiple Generations that are

[25:00] sharing a lot of people I have a motto

[25:02] that many people know nature provides I

[25:04] don't that's my mantra for 30 years I'm

[25:07] happy to announce I just received a Drug

[25:09] Enforcement Administration license for

[25:10] Seoul Simon I passed my background check

[25:16] but people oftentimes ask me well where

[25:19] I can get souls I have and I go I can't

[25:20] possibly tell you but you have grandkids

[25:22] how old are they

[25:24] 16 to 25 they probably know where to

[25:27] find some

[25:28] um but a funny story about interracial

[25:31] and with children my partner I live on a

[25:33] remote island and desolation sound

[25:35] British Columbia that's where I spend 95

[25:37] percent of my time it's very strange

[25:40] it's beautiful place but then we get

[25:41] thrust into conferences otherwise we

[25:44] live in an extraordinary isolation

[25:46] um and we have a boat and I was over at

[25:49] a place that is a water access only tiny

[25:53] little village and I was gassing up my

[25:55] boat at the dock and I was um you know

[25:58] walking down the dock and there was like

[26:01] six seven-year-old girl she wasn't older

[26:03] than eight for sure but you know six to

[26:05] eight years old and she's like I'm

[26:08] walking down the lock and she's there

[26:09] with her family that come in on a little

[26:12] sailboat and she's just stopped in the

[26:14] middle of the dock and looked at me and

[26:16] she goes are you Paul stamets

[26:20] wow really I'm in bum [ __ ] nowhere you

[26:24] know and I go yes and yes and you go I

[26:27] get Amazon so she ran back to her

[26:29] parents saying oh but this is supposed

[26:30] to happen and then so it was really nice

[26:33] meeting her and she was really enthused

[26:34] and so I said they go we saw your movie

[26:38] a fantastic fungi and I I looked at her

[26:40] and I got she was really excited and I

[26:42] go what was your favorite part of the

[26:44] movie and she goes I like the part when

[26:46] the monkeys ate the mushrooms

[26:50] they'll twinkle with the parents eyes

[26:52] going okay this is the next Generation

[26:55] so

[26:56] but I do think it's multi-generational

[26:58] and I say this was some Chagrin and

[27:01] sadness before my father died he asked

[27:04] the trip on Soul side of mushrooms with

[27:06] me

[27:07] and Alexandra Smith who would like

[27:09] Daniel stunts with one of my great

[27:11] mentors he was the father of American

[27:12] mycology published many new species of

[27:15] souls I've mushrooms many monographs

[27:17] University of Michigan and he also asked

[27:20] me to trip with him on psilocybin

[27:23] mushrooms I mean these are two very

[27:25] important men and you know literally

[27:27] father figures in my life

[27:29] and with both of them I asked the same

[27:32] question and I said okay

[27:36] we could do this

[27:38] this is can profoundly change you

[27:41] you know Helen Alexander Smith's wife

[27:43] she was also renowned Mycologist I asked

[27:46] her and I asked my father's wife

[27:49] um will you also

[27:51] you know take these soul type mushrooms

[27:53] with us and both of them said no

[27:56] they wouldn't do it

[27:58] and I said well I respectfully decline I

[28:01] cannot give you Souls Ivan mushrooms go

[28:03] on our journey with you

[28:05] and at the end of your life they're in

[28:07] their 70s you'll have such a profound

[28:09] experience then I didn't want to drive a

[28:12] wedge in your relationship

[28:15] and this is where I think therapists and

[28:18] psychiatrists are so important to create

[28:21] safe guard rails because these are

[28:23] powerful medicines but what happens

[28:25] afterwards you do this big extraordinary

[28:28] journey and then I disappear right and

[28:31] they're left holding the pieces I didn't

[28:33] live with my father just on vacation I

[28:36] go away in two days Alexander Smith I'd

[28:39] go away the next day and then he would

[28:41] have to be trying to tell Helen or their

[28:43] Partners you know something that they

[28:45] couldn't fathom and this is I think a

[28:48] really serious you know

[28:50] question that we all face these are such

[28:53] powerful medicines what happens

[28:55] afterwards are you there for them are

[28:58] you skilled enough to to help them

[29:00] process and I think this is really

[29:03] really important is you know it's not

[29:06] the journey itself it's the path of the

[29:09] journey and subsequently that you'll be

[29:12] able need to come to terms and be able

[29:14] to talk this out so in the audience here

[29:17] we have a giant in the Canadian

[29:19] psychedelic movement as Dr Pam Crisco

[29:22] and she is part of the Canadian

[29:24] psychedelic Association and a group

[29:26] called roots to thrive they're doing

[29:28] group therapy end of life despair

[29:32] distress anxiety mostly stage four

[29:35] diagnosed patients with Canadian

[29:37] government approval with high doses of

[29:39] psilocybin now this I think is a model

[29:42] and is being replicated so I want to

[29:44] give her a lot of credit she's in the

[29:46] front row here and many

[29:51] but what they would that they have

[29:53] pioneered which is really good and with

[29:56] indigenous input Etc is that because

[29:59] this group of eight people and they have

[30:01] eight you know you know support people

[30:04] Physicians you know other people who are

[30:06] skilled in this indigenous people as

[30:08] well elders

[30:10] but because they have a common you know

[30:12] malady or or you know they have a death

[30:16] you know sentence

[30:19] the fact they all share this sort of

[30:21] like oh my gosh we're doomed to die very

[30:24] soon

[30:25] because they could come together and

[30:27] prepare over several weeks

[30:30] and then they share this journey

[30:31] together

[30:33] they became a community

[30:35] of people who could talk to each other

[30:37] when the other people weren't available

[30:39] to build Bridges and bonds and to be

[30:42] able to have a common destiny that you

[30:45] shared together in this journey rather

[30:47] than being alone which is what my father

[30:49] and Alexander Smith would have faced

[30:51] what a contrast and so I think this idea

[30:54] of people coming together not like going

[30:56] to Costa Rica or Jamaica and you're you

[30:58] know or you know Cusco Peru or something

[31:00] like this and you walk in and you pay

[31:02] your your your fee and you sit down with

[31:04] strangers I think that's a formula for

[31:06] disaster

[31:07] because one person have a bad trip will

[31:10] traumatize everybody in the group and

[31:13] they will go WTF we didn't sign up for

[31:15] this they're making my trip really

[31:17] challenging so I think having the shared

[31:19] common purpose I think that model has

[31:23] extraordinarily powerful potential so Dr

[31:27] Crisco thank you very much for your

[31:29] leadership you're really doing something

[31:30] quite amazing and they're publishing on

[31:32] this as well so thank you and she'll be

[31:34] on a channel here tomorrow at 2 30 with

[31:38] me and Natalie gagason and Xiao Jay who

[31:41] which is a women in the Psychedelic

[31:44] ecosphere who want to talk about uh

[31:47] psychedelics for women basically but men

[31:49] are allowed funny story also at 2 30 is

[31:53] the business of psychedelics 2.0

[31:55] at the same time so it's okay either you

[31:59] wanna like you know I don't know if you

[32:01] if you go to my team or Bluetooth you

[32:03] will be canceled you will be canceled if

[32:04] you go to mine uh you will be canceled

[32:09] uh you'll learn a lot too no if you're

[32:12] interested in capitalism whatever but

[32:13] we're going to be talking about actual

[32:15] clinical things so that's cute

[32:19] sorry Dan but I think it's time for

[32:21] women to take leadership so I just think

[32:23] this is a time for women no cancel I

[32:25] self cancel self cancel

[32:28] but I I wanted to make sure that at some

[32:30] point I canceled myself you know that's

[32:32] good I have to say Paul's been a

[32:34] tremendous Ally to The woman there was

[32:35] there was a mantle a few years ago just

[32:37] as covid was starting the guys didn't

[32:39] realize it was like eight or nine guys

[32:41] on a panel at a Consciousness

[32:44] um conference and I don't usually I'm

[32:47] not the kind of person to I'm just quiet

[32:50] and unassuming I don't usually make

[32:51] trouble but I emailed a few of them

[32:52] because there were friends of mine

[32:53] because it was like Paul stimitz and

[32:55] Andy Weil and I just emailed a few of

[32:56] them I'm like you guys did anybody

[32:58] notice that like this is a total mantle

[33:00] and the first person who responded Paul

[33:03] was like oh my God no this is terrible

[33:06] you know we have to change this I'm

[33:08] gonna bow out we need more women like

[33:10] you you were right there front and

[33:11] center and I really appreciate that and

[33:13] then well they added Melania Trump and

[33:14] that was it right that was the whole

[33:16] thing then covet came and it got online

[33:18] and you know the rest of the story I

[33:20] just want to make sure at some point I

[33:21] stepped into a big pile of [ __ ] uh for

[33:23] myself and I'm glad I did no I uh either

[33:26] panel is gonna be great go to go to hers

[33:28] you can watch mine another time can we

[33:31] can we just do this really quick Paul uh

[33:33] a little break because it has to do with

[33:35] movies

[33:36] we don't have to go off in a big thing

[33:37] on it but I'm just curious you are a

[33:39] lieutenant commander is that correct do

[33:41] you know what I'm talking about

[33:43] okay so chicken or egg question

[33:45] did Star Trek Discovery name a character

[33:50] after you because you had started

[33:51] exploring Astro mycology or was the idea

[33:54] from Astro mycology inspired by Star

[33:57] Trek I'm just curious actually I'm very

[34:00] happy to answer that and I have actually

[34:02] an add-on as well I was up in by the

[34:06] remote island cabin and CBS arranged a

[34:09] group call and 12 of the writers from

[34:11] Star Trek Discovery literally said Paul

[34:14] we're in the dungeon we're supposed to

[34:15] write the next Star Trek we don't have

[34:17] the foggiest thing what to do do you

[34:19] have any ideas and we're asking wow my

[34:22] cabin is built in the shape of Star Trek

[34:25] Enterprise

[34:26] the rafters are are gills of mushrooms

[34:30] right and it's it's it's three hexagons

[34:34] in tribute to bees and the big hexagon

[34:37] 36 feet out and the 224s are shaped like

[34:41] like a Starship so I'm going you've got

[34:44] to be kidding right and so um I said

[34:47] turn on your tape recorders let me let

[34:49] me and so I so I talked about mycelium

[34:52] the organization of Dark Matter computer

[34:55] internet neurons all conform to the to

[34:59] this web-like structure this interlacing

[35:01] networks and I told them about I believe

[35:05] that we'll find fungi throughout the

[35:06] Universe and and I said you know I gave

[35:10] him this whole wrap and I said rather

[35:11] than you know going going into

[35:13] hyperdrive and you see all the stars

[35:14] flash by you if you can tap into the

[35:16] micellar universe you can

[35:18] instantaneously jump anywhere in the

[35:20] universe so this is the advantage

[35:22] because the dark the organization of

[35:24] dark matter you know is is this network

[35:26] that permeates throughout the entire

[35:29] universe and so you know they're going

[35:30] oh my that's great and that towards the

[35:32] end I go you know I always wanted to I

[35:34] said you can have the ideas for free I

[35:35] don't want to acknowledgment I don't

[35:37] want anything I'm a Star Trek fan and

[35:39] what I love about Star Trek is you set

[35:40] the stage on a model for future

[35:42] generations of Tolerance diversity the

[35:45] the prime directive cooperation bringing

[35:49] people together this is a sacred Duty

[35:51] that science fiction becomes science

[35:53] fact you can lead people like myself

[35:54] with I was hugely impressionable about

[35:58] the tolerance of diversity Etc and then

[36:01] I blurted out I always wanted to be the

[36:02] first Astro Mycologist they go

[36:04] astromeycologist Astro Mycologist we

[36:07] could use this and then a little bit of

[36:09] the background then two weeks before it

[36:12] came out they go uh we better call Paul

[36:15] and they call Paul and they go because I

[36:17] signed a contract signed my life away

[36:18] you know they could do anything with my

[36:20] name no money no compensation

[36:23] um they said uh you know your character

[36:26] Anthony rap do you do you mind he's that

[36:29] he's gay

[36:31] you're asking me now right

[36:34] I said are you kidding that's a badge of

[36:37] honor I have all my gay friends I can

[36:39] tell them that I you know I've come out

[36:40] of the closet right so so you know so

[36:44] then then to finish the story there's uh

[36:46] the first three episodes showed and the

[36:49] Astro Mycologist Paul stamis is the

[36:51] total [ __ ]

[36:53] so my friends call me up on this is a so

[36:56] damaging to your career and your

[36:58] reputation so I call them going WTF

[37:02] what's going on they go hold on hold on

[37:04] so I told him about the mycilial sport

[37:06] Drive beneath increasing this chamber

[37:08] that you can fuse with the mycelium so

[37:10] the Astro Mycologist the stamets it goes

[37:12] into the mycilial sport drive and then

[37:15] bonds with blue glowing mycelium

[37:18] um and then after that encounter he

[37:20] comes out a really nice person

[37:26] so so I I I came out of the Psychedelic

[37:30] closet Paul came out of a different

[37:31] closet Giuliani closets you want to come

[37:33] out of um I was going to make the Star

[37:35] Trek sound when you said you came out of

[37:37] the closet but I didn't is there any are

[37:40] there any closets I want to come out is

[37:41] that your question for me moderator

[37:44] I feel like I already have I mean I've

[37:46] outed myself as a cannabis user as

[37:48] somebody who tried MDMA

[37:51] um

[37:52] I don't know the Psychedelic parenting I

[37:54] mean I feel like I've I've outed myself

[37:56] as much as I possibly can

[37:58] oh we'll work on that

[38:00] um

[38:01] uh okay uh this is this is somewhere

[38:03] between this is a question this is a

[38:04] good Julian Paul like dual question here

[38:06] because my my first experience uh was

[38:09] with uh age I'm 50. so this was at age

[38:13] 45. it was with MDMA I thought it was

[38:15] gonna be with mushroom I thought it was

[38:16] gonna be with psilocybin for a while

[38:17] because I'd you know done all my

[38:18] research and I'm an adult and I'm like

[38:20] well this is you know it's you can't

[38:21] it's untax it you can't you can take as

[38:23] much as you want I read Michael Collins

[38:24] book it was with MDMA and it was the

[38:26] luckiest thing that luckiest break I

[38:28] ever had and I say that because I had an

[38:31] incredibly uh profound experience with

[38:34] MDMA that led me to led me to to to be

[38:38] able to be I guess brave enough to go

[38:40] down the mushroom I have a very

[38:42] challenging relationship with mushrooms

[38:45] they say like really you know you have a

[38:46] relationship with the medicine it's a

[38:47] it's a troubled relationship like I'm

[38:48] still working on it

[38:50] um what advice do you you know there's

[38:52] this kind of everyone's jumping into

[38:54] into Soul Simon right away and and that

[38:57] I see and they're doing giant Doses and

[38:59] they are having challenging experience

[39:01] chances where do you go with that

[39:03] because there's a lot of Dogma you have

[39:04] to start here then you do this or you

[39:06] have to do that and I think it's

[39:07] different for everyone but I'm curious

[39:08] where you're at with that and where

[39:10] you're at with that you're a little

[39:11] biased uh and I want to know

[39:14] um this is what I do for a living I mean

[39:15] I I do consultations with people who you

[39:19] know have a lot of questions should I

[39:20] microdose should I macroduce what about

[39:22] ketamine what about Ayahuasca what makes

[39:23] sense for me should I do MDMA first some

[39:26] people mix

[39:27] um I have I have all kinds of opinions

[39:29] and I don't think I can get into all of

[39:31] it now I mean my personal bias is that I

[39:33] think it's nice to start with MDMA

[39:35] because it's a little more of a subtle

[39:38] shift and it's pretty controllable and

[39:41] you can kind of get a lay of the land

[39:43] and figure out where the landmines are

[39:45] where are the areas you need to work on

[39:46] and you know one of the metaphors I use

[39:48] with MDMA is uh it's like a light a

[39:51] house with all the lights on all the

[39:53] doors unlocked it's kind of up to you

[39:54] what closet you want to go into what bed

[39:56] you want to look under but you sort of

[39:59] feel

[40:00] competent and confident enough to do

[40:03] some exploring but you're going to hit

[40:05] some places where you're like oh that's

[40:06] too big and I don't know if I can do

[40:08] that which means you come back to it

[40:09] maybe another MDMA session or maybe you

[40:11] have psilocybin the second time but the

[40:13] big biggest issue now is that people are

[40:15] on psych meds and it's really hard to

[40:18] advise people it's hard to get off psych

[40:20] meds it's hard to get off

[40:21] antidepressants in case you haven't

[40:23] heard that I will tell you so and you

[40:27] can microdose even if you're on psych

[40:29] meds you can have ketamine if you're on

[40:31] psych meds but Ayahuasca is not going to

[40:33] really be possible if you're on most

[40:34] standard psychiatric medicines MDMA also

[40:38] often won't work depending on what meds

[40:39] you're on and then psilocybin is a

[40:41] little more complicated but this issue

[40:43] of drug interactions is something that

[40:45] really matters to me it is it is you

[40:47] know one of the risks because there are

[40:49] very few medical risks but if you're on

[40:50] these meds then you mix with these drugs

[40:52] that's going to be a risk so the biggest

[40:55] risk is also just our drug policy

[40:58] creates risk right we don't know what

[40:59] we're getting you know the drug

[41:01] substitution counterfeit I mean we

[41:03] really are having a crisis obviously Now

[41:05] with uh sort of the poisoning of the

[41:08] drug Supply so that's a big risk but our

[41:11] drug policy creates some of these risks

[41:13] and um and then some of the risks are

[41:15] just because you know as I love to say

[41:17] people are gonna people uh there

[41:20] unfortunately is abuse you know doctors

[41:22] abuse their patients dentist abuser

[41:24] patients Chiropractics abuser clients uh

[41:27] the the priests abuse their

[41:29] confessioners you know there's abuse in

[41:31] the military I mean it's everywhere and

[41:34] it turns out is also not only in the

[41:36] underground psychedelic scene but it's

[41:37] also in the clinical research

[41:39] psychedelic scene and in the retreat

[41:40] scene and nine perfect strangers uh

[41:43] really did a bad job educating about

[41:46] consent if nothing else let's just say

[41:48] uh that was a little problematic so you

[41:51] know I I want there to be Consultants on

[41:54] these shows if I you know if I can't

[41:55] personally be involved I would love to

[41:57] read a script and say hey this is

[42:00] dangerous this doesn't make sense let's

[42:02] make sure that we educate people about

[42:03] screening and preparation and

[42:06] integration afterwards and you know

[42:07] these are all things everybody needs to

[42:09] understand better keep in mind all the

[42:11] clinical research people are screened

[42:13] like crazy easy if you have any history

[42:15] of a manic episode or if you've ever

[42:16] been psychotic or if you have a first

[42:18] degree relative who's ever had a manic

[42:20] episode or been psychotic you can't be

[42:22] in that study so after the studies and

[42:25] after the FDA approval when it's more

[42:27] available and there's going to be less

[42:30] screening I'm afraid and unfortunately

[42:33] probably uh you know trying to run more

[42:35] people at once because the two clinician

[42:38] one participant model really isn't going

[42:42] to be cost effective so there are going

[42:44] to be a lot of bumps in the road and I

[42:46] think it's reasonable that we prepare

[42:49] for them

[42:50] if the pendulum swings so far that way

[42:52] right you know in terms of in terms of

[42:55] um

[42:56] warning and and and letting people know

[42:58] about the harms that's part of getting

[43:00] back to the movies and you know being on

[43:02] Joe Rogan all that is the messaging

[43:04] where do you go with that well um I I

[43:07] what I will want to say for the record

[43:09] you should obey the law

[43:11] the challenge that you face is uh do you

[43:14] obey state law or federal law

[43:16] and those states that are legalized like

[43:19] Colorado

[43:20] um and so in Oregon but

[43:25] you know I we have with our micro

[43:28] dose.me study and and doctors have are

[43:31] collecting hundreds and hundreds of case

[43:34] report reports where people have gotten

[43:37] off their anti-depressive medicines with

[43:38] microdosing and so attentive Physicians

[43:41] are always looking for these uh the N1

[43:44] studies one of these remarkable uh

[43:47] breakthroughs that are not conventional

[43:50] and they end up documenting it there's

[43:52] actually journals it was basically uh on

[43:55] best uh outcome cases where they were

[43:58] given a diagnosis for which there was no

[44:01] apparent remedy and then you know they

[44:04] stumbled upon something so when you

[44:06] start getting hundreds and hundreds of

[44:07] these case reports then clinicians wake

[44:09] up they begin to look at those saying

[44:11] wow there is something happening here we

[44:13] need to study it and so I think that's

[44:16] good you know with Grassroots movement

[44:18] is populating databases giving

[44:21] information that Physicians otherwise

[44:24] would not see if they'd only saw 100

[44:26] patients a month and you've got a

[44:28] hundred thousand people reporting now

[44:30] you're starting to see something and

[44:32] then clinicians pay attention for this

[44:34] for people who don't who weren't not

[44:36] there yesterday if you go to

[44:38] clinicaltrials.gov there's a 120

[44:41] clinical trials registered on psilocybin

[44:43] at clinicaltrials.gov

[44:45] that's extraordinary there was one back

[44:49] in 1999 right yeah so so that that means

[44:52] that the people are paying attention to

[44:54] this there is a lot of hype and high

[44:56] expectation

[44:58] but as more of these clinical trials are

[45:00] published it's you know amazing to me

[45:02] that many of these high expectations

[45:04] which seem to be extraordinary or even

[45:07] over exaggerated are now become

[45:10] substantiated alcohol use disorder

[45:13] opioid use disorder so kicking tobacco I

[45:17] mean this is these are three different

[45:19] types of drugs three different types of

[45:21] receptors and yet is fundamentally

[45:24] changing their neurological health of

[45:26] these addicts so that the course of data

[45:30] is is actually substantiating

[45:33] increasingly these extraordinary claims

[45:36] that heretofore were looked upon as

[45:38] being exaggerations and it's it's

[45:40] looking more and more real yep on the

[45:43] other hand

[45:45] people who have treatment resistant

[45:47] depression who've tried all these

[45:49] medicines and TMS and all these other

[45:52] things and they come to psychedelics and

[45:54] it's their sort of Last Hope and of

[45:56] course this is going to work everybody

[45:57] says this work uh and for whatever

[46:00] reason it doesn't work for them

[46:02] um those people are in a pretty bad

[46:04] State and they are few and far between

[46:06] but it does happen but there's you know

[46:08] I email you every once in a while about

[46:10] this like there's some people who just

[46:11] don't respond to mushrooms God knows

[46:14] if Paul doesn't know God knows why some

[46:17] people aren't responding to mushrooms

[46:18] and we do know I published a paper about

[46:22] people who'd been on ssris for a long

[46:25] time and when they came off of ssris to

[46:27] do an MDMA study the people who were

[46:30] never on ssris had a big robust response

[46:32] to MDMA the people who had been on ssris

[46:35] who had come off had less of a response

[46:37] I don't know if that's the case with

[46:39] mushrooms or not I've talked to some

[46:40] underground people who feel like the

[46:43] people who've been unss for decades

[46:44] don't have a robust response to

[46:46] mushrooms even if they come off I don't

[46:48] know if that's true but I do know that

[46:50] there I definitely know about people

[46:53] who came off their meds to have these

[46:55] experiences it wasn't what they I just

[46:58] talked to an underground person recently

[46:59] who got sort of some negative feedback

[47:01] from the person who complained I didn't

[47:03] get enlightened you know

[47:06] thought it was gonna get enlightened and

[47:08] you know it's not just a one and done

[47:10] there's this whole process and you may

[47:11] have to do a couple times and you need a

[47:12] lot of support between and you need a

[47:14] lot of support after as you said it's

[47:16] really this whole you know as much as

[47:18] people talk about integration they throw

[47:20] this word around it's the after that

[47:22] really matters well there's also a

[47:24] fundamental flaw unfortunately with

[47:25] clinical trials and it's extraordinary

[47:27] to me that more clinicians have not

[47:29] addressed this early on increasingly

[47:31] they are it's the placebo blind double

[47:34] control right and you the one group

[47:37] supposed to go to Placebo and the other

[47:39] group has a high dose of psilocybin

[47:41] there's a great cartoon many of you have

[47:43] seen and I just love it and the person

[47:45] or sitting in a patient group you know

[47:47] there are six of them sitting in their

[47:49] chair and the other six are dancing

[47:50] around you know and they go hey the

[47:53] person goes well I guess we're in the

[47:54] placebo group you know and this is a

[47:57] actually an ethical issue because you're

[47:59] treating somebody with treatment

[48:00] resistant depression this is the end of

[48:02] the line for them nothing has worked

[48:04] they're hoping they get psilocybin well

[48:07] what's the ethical responsibility the

[48:09] conditions that are exacerbating their

[48:12] depression they thought they were going

[48:13] to get psilocybin they get a placebo

[48:16] and then they use that as a baseline

[48:18] right for the comparison of the people

[48:21] who have an improvement I mean it's a

[48:24] it's really fundamentally flawed and

[48:26] there's 25 to 30 of these clinical

[48:29] trials that are using in inactive

[48:32] placebos in contrast to high doses I'm I

[48:35] mean this is just scientifically

[48:37] impunable and I don't know how they got

[48:40] past the IRB boards on this and that's

[48:42] the hubris of scientists especially

[48:44] scientists who have not tripped right

[48:47] who that looked at this as some other

[48:48] type of medicine that they think that

[48:50] they'll know it all is in designing

[48:52] clinical trials and then I think it's

[48:54] it's a serious I would take every

[48:56] clinical trial with treatment resistant

[48:58] or major depressive disorder that used a

[49:01] high dose of psilocybin with a placebo

[49:02] and you know look at them you know just

[49:05] very circumspectively as being you know

[49:08] inflating their data because of the

[49:11] contrast and what's the moral

[49:13] responsibility of causing these people

[49:15] to be more depressed because they were

[49:17] deselected it's true that in some

[49:18] psilocybin studies the only suicidality

[49:21] is really in the placebo group group I

[49:23] just said group in the placebo group

[49:25] it's incredibly disappointing right and

[49:27] when people ask me about whether they

[49:29] should try to find a study or try to go

[49:31] to somebody underground and we talk

[49:32] about all the risks and benefits of that

[49:34] I talk about the fact that most clinical

[49:36] studies is a 50 50 chance you're going

[49:37] to get the medicine so you have to be

[49:39] willing you know you're really doing it

[49:41] for science you can't do it for you and

[49:44] I've been arguing against Placebo in

[49:45] this forever and I'm I'm in the process

[49:47] of helping to design a study very early

[49:49] stages of using MDMA in the treatment of

[49:51] people with schizophrenia I I refuse to

[49:54] have a placebo in that

[49:56] that group first of all people with

[49:58] schizophrenia are sometimes pretty

[50:00] paranoid I don't want to play games

[50:01] who's got the button you know they just

[50:04] so I think what we're going to do is

[50:06] everybody's going to go through with

[50:08] Placebo first so they get the land and

[50:10] understand how it works and the second

[50:11] time they will get active drug and it

[50:13] will just know it and it's okay because

[50:15] you do know it I mean unless you're

[50:16] going to put dilating eye drops in every

[50:18] person which would be one way I've been

[50:21] talking about midriotic drops forever

[50:22] because to me it's a very easy cheap way

[50:24] to at least make everyone look like

[50:26] they're tripping who's in the study can

[50:28] you explain that I'm not quite familiar

[50:30] it's an eye drop that dilates your

[50:31] pupils so you get the big basketball

[50:33] pupils that one may get when they're

[50:35] taking uh well that's good the doctor's

[50:37] looking at people it would at least it

[50:39] will it would at least help the doctors

[50:41] think everybody was tripping but also

[50:42] when you get that much light in things

[50:44] look a little

[50:45] trippy so it's something

[50:47] have you ever gotten your pupils dilated

[50:49] for eye exam Paul you need to go to the

[50:51] eye doctor

[50:53] that's a little reminiscent of MDMA or

[50:56] psilocybin when you get that kind of

[50:58] increased light coming in yes but you

[51:00] know this is like even when people look

[51:02] at fractals and geometrical patterns you

[51:05] know it's just not like VR and VR is a

[51:08] wonderful toy again technology is

[51:10] getting ahead of itself but with VR that

[51:12] won't make you have the feeling of

[51:14] unanimity that Wells up inside of you

[51:17] when you're tripping and you feel this

[51:19] one with the universe it's not just

[51:21] fractals and geometrical patterns and

[51:23] and visual effects it's something that's

[51:26] deep inside of your core that Wells up

[51:29] and that is so different than what a VR

[51:31] experience can give and so these again

[51:33] clinicians are using VR who think it's

[51:36] oh yeah we can induce a psychoactive

[51:38] experience well you can get part of the

[51:39] way there but it's not the same thing

[51:41] yeah and also a lot of people don't have

[51:43] visuals or aren't very uh visually

[51:45] oriented there's something called a

[51:46] Fantasia that a lot more people have

[51:48] then we realize and it's some people

[51:50] they can close their eyes and image you

[51:52] know they can they can visualize their

[51:53] mother's face or you know what they ate

[51:55] yesterday or something other people when

[51:57] they close their eyes to visualize it's

[51:58] just black that's called a Fantasia and

[52:01] so a lot of people with a Fantasia don't

[52:03] have a lot of visuals anyway so if

[52:06] they're just focusing on the pretty

[52:08] colors they're really they're certainly

[52:09] I'm so neurotic I think you just gave me

[52:11] a Fantasia like I've been wondering why

[52:13] it's no but for me my first well yeah

[52:16] this is the visual this is a great short

[52:19] story uh Terence McKenna and um

[52:22] Christian ratch and and where Eduardo

[52:25] Luna uh and I were in Palenque and um we

[52:28] went to the ruins and um we had a bunch

[52:31] of cubensis and and for some freaking

[52:34] reason not a single one of us had a

[52:36] flashlight

[52:38] um we went to the ruins of Palenque and

[52:40] we all ate a whole bunch of Cuban sauce

[52:42] together I mean it's a great what a

[52:43] great group right and we're walking back

[52:45] to chongka the resort there in was about

[52:48] two miles away and we took the jungle

[52:50] Trail bad idea

[52:52] um and we ended up and the halfway

[52:54] through I mean it is Pitch Black we

[52:58] cannotize the type of trail walking

[53:00] where you're feeling with your feet

[53:01] whether you're on the Solid Ground where

[53:03] you're off the path and we're all

[53:04] staying close together going this is

[53:06] crazy and I go wait wait I have my Nikon

[53:09] camera I have a flash you know I can

[53:11] Flash ahead and we can see the trail

[53:14] and so I said wait so I turn on my flash

[53:17] you know

[53:18] you know the battery goes up and it says

[53:20] okay here we go ready one two three

[53:24] Flash

[53:27] oh that's going oh my God that was

[53:30] incredible so we so we stopped in the

[53:34] trail we all put our the eight of us

[53:36] around in front of my flash like oh here

[53:39] we go

[53:41] one two three

[53:44] and we're just like oh this is the

[53:46] greatest shamanic tool ever you know

[53:50] all right I I would want to put one harm

[53:53] reduction message in here this is for uh

[53:56] because I think we're actually videoing

[53:57] this session so hopefully uh you know

[53:58] we're gonna we're gonna have to do there

[54:00] may be some editing we'll see what

[54:01] happens no no no no I'm with yeah

[54:03] nothing I said no I got you it was

[54:05] illegal no no no no no it's perfect I'm

[54:07] going somewhere else here I'm going

[54:08] somewhere else here ready okay all right

[54:10] the the story that that you've told how

[54:13] you addressed your uh your stammer uh

[54:15] you know when you're younger it's a and

[54:16] it's a beautiful story and in fact

[54:18] before um the session there was someone

[54:20] that came up came up to us in in the

[54:22] green room and and shared his his um

[54:24] personal story of having a stammer and

[54:26] and was thanking you and it you took a

[54:28] you took some some time to talk to him

[54:30] and it was very very meaningful it

[54:32] reminded me of uh you know of of why I'm

[54:35] what gets me excited about being in this

[54:37] field and in this space but let me tell

[54:39] you something that tree going up in the

[54:40] tree I have four boys and I'm very

[54:42] honest with them about trivia I just

[54:44] want to clarify once and for all are you

[54:45] ready for this the tree when you went up

[54:47] in the tree with the lightning storm it

[54:49] was only like three feet off the ground

[54:51] right I mean the branch was like right

[54:52] here right I just want to make sure

[54:54] it was the video

[54:58] and Jonah you know what we're editing

[55:00] here yeah but yeah since you brought the

[55:02] tree and lightning

[55:04] I want to share an epiphany with all of

[55:07] you

[55:08] and my partner is very much a part of

[55:10] this experience because of this

[55:11] narrative

[55:13] okay this is um

[55:15] throughout the world lightning strikes

[55:18] are associated with mushrooms formations

[55:20] the Northern Plains First Nations the

[55:24] um the white circles are on the teepees

[55:27] are puff balls associated with lightning

[55:29] strikes in Ireland in Europe and

[55:32] mesoamerica all over the world Japan and

[55:35] Russia lightning stimulate you know is

[55:38] thought to stimulate mushrooms to form

[55:39] well there was a group in Japan that

[55:42] found 50 to 100 000 volts of electricity

[55:45] 110 millionth of a burst doubled the

[55:48] production of shiitake mushrooms so

[55:50] lightning was proven electricity pulses

[55:53] stimulate mushrooms okay we carry that

[55:55] forward and I'm thinking and I'm

[55:57] tripping and I'm thinking about the

[55:59] eight miles of mycelium you know

[56:01] underneath you know in a single cubic uh

[56:04] inch of soil every foot print you take

[56:07] you're on 300 miles of mycelium and I

[56:09] think after hundreds of millions of

[56:11] years of evolution nature is smart

[56:13] mycelium is smart organisms are smart if

[56:16] there's a lightning strike on the

[56:17] horizon the flash of light and you hear

[56:20] thunder

[56:21] well mycelium produces mushrooms in

[56:23] response to Forest stimuli a drop of

[56:25] rain of course associated with drop in

[56:27] temperature mycelium Wicks up exhaled

[56:29] carbon dioxide inhales oxygen and light

[56:31] so those are four primary stimuli so I

[56:35] thought to myself wait with all these

[56:37] fibers of mycelium all over the ground

[56:39] lightning striking a distance followed

[56:42] by sound low sound frequencies wouldn't

[56:46] it awaken the mycelium the myceliums

[56:48] like strings on a piano strings on the

[56:51] guitar they're vibrating from these

[56:54] waves that would alert the mycelium that

[56:56] rain is coming

[56:58] and if the rain is coming the mycelium

[57:00] wakens up to be able to absorb the

[57:02] moisture it's wicking it understands

[57:04] that on the horizon on the Event Horizon

[57:06] there's water coming well moreover

[57:10] think about this with drum circles

[57:13] with people celebrating the birth of a

[57:15] child the death of an elder the Harvest

[57:18] of food

[57:20] the mycelium is listening when people

[57:23] come together tribally and celebrate

[57:26] outside in nature with drumming and

[57:28] singing and toning

[57:30] I believe the mycelium Ascension it

[57:34] knows and is stimulated by these

[57:36] vibrations which means the mycelium will

[57:38] grow channeling more nutrients to the

[57:40] plants to creating more herbs more

[57:42] vegetables more fruits

[57:45] and that the mycelium is actually in the

[57:48] presence as a presence of being that's

[57:51] surrounding us all the time

[57:53] and I thought oh my God

[57:55] these lenses of mycelium everywhere are

[57:58] sound sensitive they're not only

[58:00] responding to the impact of your

[58:01] Footprints not only talking to lightning

[58:04] but are to our voices to toning

[58:07] and I think I think that's really

[58:09] amazing

[58:11] that is I thank you

[58:14] I'm what's that

[58:16] yeah yeah I'm get I'm getting thank you

[58:18] by the way I that's that was that's

[58:20] beautiful I have uh I have so I have I

[58:23] have a gift for the panelists why

[58:24] because it's it's fun to give gifts to

[58:26] the panelists I was searching for

[58:27] something mushroom related I had

[58:28] something really cool that I'm going to

[58:30] tell you about later but it's uh it's

[58:31] it's too expensive you may have to buy

[58:33] it on your own but it's really cool

[58:35] um seriously no but but but I I have

[58:39] this I have a gift for the panelists and

[58:41] it is a bronze I had to write this down

[58:43] Garuda opium weight this is not a

[58:45] Shameless plug for somebody's Gallery

[58:48] who I'm very related to but it's it's

[58:50] very cool it's from Southeast Asia it's

[58:51] roughly 150 years old and they were used

[58:54] to measure quantities of opium

[58:56] okay so it's kind of a harm reduction

[58:59] sort of thing right I don't know how

[59:00] much it weighs but um it's pretty cool I

[59:03] would still get your drug testing kits

[59:04] from dance safe if you are doing that

[59:06] and probably by a good scale but I

[59:08] thought this was pretty cool and one for

[59:10] each of you and when you uh when you

[59:12] when you use it just don't like whatever

[59:13] it is just make sure it's legal and that

[59:15] you've talked to your doctor

[59:17] but um I want to thank both of you

[59:19] really

[59:20] um for for your time and your stories

[59:23] and sharing your stories it's what

[59:25] inspired me to get in this space

[59:27] um changed my life I'm hoping that the

[59:29] work we're doing can can do the same for

[59:31] many others and it's uh it's you guys

[59:33] that made it happen um I just want to

[59:34] remind you if anybody wants uh I'm gonna

[59:36] be at the bookstore right starting now

[59:38] basically signing copies of good

[59:40] chemistry because I gotta run sorry I

[59:42] can't chat but I can chat over there and

[59:43] I'm doing a book signing tomorrow at one

[59:45] o'clock at the host defense Booth

[59:47] downstairs so thank you all thank you

Paul Stamets
AuthorPaul Stamets

Watch more from Paul Stamets on YouTube.

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Psychedelics-researchPsilocybin-therapyMedia-narrativeMycologyConsciousness

Got Questions?

Frequently Asked Questions

Documentaries like Netflix's <em>How to Change Your Mind</em>, <em>Fantastic Fungi</em>, and books by Ayelet Waldman and others made the topic accessible to general audiences. Daniel Goldberg noted these media accounts brought in audiences who would never enter the field through traditional scientific channels alone. Narrative is a powerful medium for knowledge transmission—what indigenous cultures did through stories for millennia, modern media now does for psychedelics.
Clinical trials registered on ClinicalTrials.gov are testing psilocybin for treatment-resistant depression—patients who have tried multiple conventional medications without success. Julie Holland emphasized that this offers an evidence-based option for people who lack other relief, though careful physician oversight is required to monitor drug interactions and ensure safety.
Stamets published <em>Psilocybe Mushrooms and Their Allies</em> in 1978 at age 23, starting the book at 19. His 45-year body of work includes detailed taxonomic classifications, habitat research, and medicinal applications, which gave him credibility when mainstream media began exploring psychedelics decades later.
Microdosing involves sub-perceptual doses that don't produce the sensation of tripping, while full therapeutic doses in clinical settings produce measurable psychological experiences. Julie Holland highlighted that each requires different risk assessment and physician oversight, particularly regarding drug interactions with psychiatric medications.
Paul Stamets emphasized that indigenous cultures have transmitted psychedelic knowledge through songs, legends, and generational storytelling for centuries. Modern Western scientific research isn't discovering something new; it's validating and understanding mechanisms behind practices that were already tested and documented in traditional cultures.
Daniel Goldberg noted the field has 'tribal' gatekeeping dynamics, with early researchers sometimes skeptical of newcomers. The panel advocated welcoming new voices and women in leadership while respecting elders. Julie Holland also emphasized that careful clinical integration and physician oversight are essential as access expands beyond research settings.

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